Another woman murdered on our streets.

[Saphire]

You really think that violent men can be taught "not " to be violent ?. You are dreaming .

You seem to think men have no self control,...some dont, the majority do.

Violence is often learned, the obvious way to try and prevent a man being violent is teaching them from an early age, showing by example.
I already answered a previous post of yours about how to tackle male violence....you ignored it.

Violent tendencies can be reversed, if they could not, no violent criminal would ever be rehabilitated, no violent teen would ever turn into a well adjusted adult.

For the ones who cant/wont stop the violence, longer prison sentences. I would go as far as bringing back the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes.
That would work.

 

[Saphire]

French Law up until the 1970's allowed for Crimes of Passion to be viewed as a temporary mental breakdown.
Many people have tried to use it as a defence since then though.

In the Cecile Brossard case the test was whether speech can cause a "Temporary Loss of Reason" (Which it can)
However in this case she was found guilty and sentenced to 8 1/2 years.
Mainly because she shot him first between the eyes, then twice in the chest and finished him off with a point blank shot to the temple.
Cleaned up the crime scene and fled to Australia.

The case didnt take into account her terrible childhood, the abuse she suffered at the hands of her mother who attempted to kill herself and the children, the sexual abuse she suffered from other family members, the list goes on.

The 4 year relationship she had with the victim was an emotional crutch for a very unstable women.
The money was promised to her, she did not "Ask" for it, he actually placed it into her account then blocked the transfer.
He was a manipulator who abused a women to the point where she snapped.

But did he deserve to die for it, debatable.

That is why the "Crime of Passion" or in UK Law "Provocation" should be re-examined, diminished responsibility is often won only by those who can afford the best specialists.

Just as Family Violence cases should always have to take into account a "Temporary Loss of Reason" clause.
However, this has become much rarer these days as it is time consuming and costly.


I know of 2 FV cases which happened to people I know.

A woman punches her partner during an argument, he see's red and slaps her across the face.
Due to more upper body strength, he breaks her occipital bone and blinds her in one eye.
Yes that is clearly a VAW (Violence Against Women) case due to the asymmetry of the injuries.
It is however also viewed as a FV (Family Violence) 50/50 case as violence was involved on both sides.

Take another case, a man slaps his partner during an argument and she grabs a kitchen knife and stabs him.
The case did actually take place in the kitchen for reference.
The statistics still classify this as a VAW case as the man struck the partner.
As above violence took place on both sides, so FV see's it as a 50/50 case.

Neither case was pre-meditated, in both cases alcohol and recreational drugs were involved.
Both could be seen as self defence, both could be seen as reactive to partner aggression, both could be see as a "Crime of Passion" as both arguments were about accusations of cheating (which in one case was true).

Should either of the cases have been charged, should both?

The reason I included the VAW and FV statistics for the 2 cases above is that those are the statistics which are reported in Government white papers, the media etc.
Domestic Violence Against Women statistics are always skewed when compared to Family Violence statistics which typically sit at 50/50 across gender.
What differs is the severity not the prevalence.

Just applying the law in Family Violence cases is sometimes not enough, sometimes a moral judgement must also be made toward state of mind of the perpetrator at the time, as in the Cecile Brossard case.

That however is a whole other argument.

I agree that one size doesn't fit all. which is why, when it comes to court and sentencing every case should (and is) viewed individually.

A man who randomly targets and kills a woman on the streets, as in the Sarah and Sabina cases, obviously differ from the man who retaliates when his wife slaps him and he beats her to death.....that would differ from a man retaliating and his wife slips and bangs her head and dies.
But then murder and manslaughter sentences differ too.

Crimes of passion, when one person is so emotionally wrecked they act out of character, are more complex.
Ruth Ellis was mentioned before.
From what I can remember, that was a true crime of passion, one that she certainly should not have been hung for.

 

[hell2bwith76]

For the ones who cant/wont stop the violence, longer prison sentences. I would go as far as bringing back the death penalty for the most heinous of crimes.
That would work.

It never worked in the past ,why do you think now is any different ?. In fact it`s even less likely to work now ! Fathers kill their families ,including boys ,to get their way. Then they kill themselves . Quite a few cases of this recently but i can find any from 20 year ago plus.
I think you are living in a dream world.
Your method :- execute this copper who violently raped & murdered that poor young woman .He`s obviously mental ,so you think all the mental male cases around are going to bother about being executed ?. If you know any history then you should know that the reason executions were banned was because quite often an innocent man was hung !! You don`t mind that then ?.

 

[SamBally]

Now, this is certainly a step in the right direction.


"The chairman of the Commons justice committee has said the government should consider making misogyny a hate crime in the way that racism was following the Macpherson Inquiry into the killing of Stephen Lawrence."

"The domestic abuse commissioner Nicole Jacobs has called on police forces to prioritise tackling domestic abuse and crimes of sexual violence, amid calls for the government to launch an inquiry after Sarah Everard’s murder."

"There are many unanswered questions about how violence against women and girls is policed and I think if we have this clear requirement it sends a clear message that tackling it is a priority."

The only sure way to get to grips with this issue is through legislation. Traditional methods have failed. These negative attitudes are far too ingrained throughout society and these particular males are far too ignorant to be educated via normal channels.

 

[hell2bwith76]

these particular males are far too ignorant to be educated via normal channels

Precisely what channels are they educated by now and which are the "recommended" channels to teach men to be nice to women ?.
So if a woman kicks her partner in the balls and he retaliates he has comitted a crime of hate ? whist she has done nothing to warrant a response?.
" OUCH! thank you darling " Fkin stupid idea if you ask me .There are enough Laws to protect every female on the Planet ( apart from Taliban women !
I think you need a more sensible Law than that. The Steven Laurence murder is a mile away from most domestic slaps .

 

[hell2bwith76]

I already answered a previous post of yours about how to tackle male violence....you ignored it.

I probably never saw it as i was browsing all the posts calling me names which are completely unfounded and definitely untrue and uneccesary.

 

[Saphire]

It never worked in the past ,why do you think now is any different ?. In fact it`s even less likely to work now ! Fathers kill their families ,including boys ,to get their way. Then they kill themselves . Quite a few cases of this recently but i can find any from 20 year ago plus.
I think you are living in a dream world.
Your method :- execute this copper who violently raped & murdered that poor young woman .He`s obviously mental ,so you think all the mental male cases around are going to bother about being executed ?. If you know any history then you should know that the reason executions were banned was because quite often an innocent man was hung !! You don`t mind that then ?.

Fathers kill their families, in the vast majority of cases, to take revenge on their exes, just one more way men use violence against women.

DNA testing was not invented when we used to have capital punishment, obviously, nowadays compiling evidence is far more sophisticated.
Pity capital punishment had been outlawed by the time the likes of Hindley and Brady, the Wests, and many other PROVEN murderers committed their crimes.

This murderous cop has not been certified mental or insane, that's just your assumption. He was a working police officer, he is evil not mad.

 

[BronzeSquirrel]

I agree with a lot of what you say here Omega.
We know females should be free to wear whatever they like, go wherever they please, and no man should ever put a finger on them if uninvited.
Rape is always the mans fault never the womans.

However, females who are unaware of danger, who dont take precautions when out and about in isolated areas, who walk alone at night through parks, will have a greater chance of being attacked by a predatory male than women who take more care.

I'm not sure about that. Remember that poor pregnant woman who broke down on the motorway? She was killed by a driver who pulled over, a completely random opportunist act. I think a lot of it is down to bad luck. Wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[hell2bwith76]

Fathers kill their families, in the vast majority of cases, to take revenge on their exes, just one more way men use violence against women.

DNA testing was not invented when we used to have capital punishment, obviously, nowadays compiling evidence is far more sophisticated.
Pity capital punishment had been outlawed by the time the likes of Hindley and Brady, the Wests, and many other PROVEN murderers committed their crimes.

This murderous cop has not been certified mental or insane, that's just your assumption. He was a working police officer, he is evil not mad.

Right .So you are still statingthat Capital Punishment would deter potential violent males ??.I don`t think so ! Look back in the Archives to find the number of murders taken place prior to the abolition of Capital Punishment.
Better still take note of the murderers who commit terrible crimes against any women ..."The Wests" ring a bell to you ? Can you explain their behaviour plus the fact that He killed himself before he could be sentenced to prison ! He obviously wasn`t scared of being hung ,he was more scared of being imprisoned i think. And was it a man who aided him in the deeds ??
I think you are clutching at straws to expect any sort of "cure" for violent people ,male or female.
I think you should read the posts of Bronze Squirrel who makes sensible truths.

 

[hell2bwith76]

Pity capital punishment had been outlawed by the time the likes of Hindley and Brady, the Wests, and many other PROVEN murderers committed their crimes.

Not much use in proving a mans guilt and hanging him after he has killed is there ? The plan is to STOP these misfits from killing in the first place.

 

[Saphire]

I'm not sure about that. Remember that poor pregnant woman who broke down on the motorway? She was killed by a driver who pulled over, a completely random opportunist act. I think a lot of it is down to bad luck. Wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes I remember that, wasn't he a doorman or a bouncer?
Sometimes, like you say, wrong place at the wrong time, and no amount of forward planning can prevent unforseen circumstances.

I just checked up on that, he was released after five and a half years after it was judged his conviction was 'unsafe through lack of evidence'. He was awardrd £600.000 compensation.

 

[Saphire]

Right .So you are still statingthat Capital Punishment would deter potential violent males ??.I don`t think so ! Look back in the Archives to find the number of murders taken place prior to the abolition of Capital Punishment.
Better still take note of the murderers who commit terrible crimes against any women ..."The Wests" ring a bell to you ? Can you explain their behaviour plus the fact that He killed himself before he could be sentenced to prison ! He obviously wasn`t scared of being hung ,he was more scared of being imprisoned i think. And was it a man who aided him in the deeds ??
I think you are clutching at straws to expect any sort of "cure" for violent people ,male or female.
I think you should read the posts of Bronze Squirrel who makes sensible truths.

Capital punishment would certainly deter the one who was being executed.

Yes, I already cited the Wests as potential candidates. It was his wife who was his partner in crime, nowhere has it been said that women can't be violent.

If you think violent people can never be 'cured' re-educated or rehabilitated, what would your answer be for every person who has commited a vilent crime?

 

[hell2bwith76]

I just checked up on that, he was released after five and a half years after it was judged his conviction was 'unsafe through lack of evidence'. He was awardrd £600.000 compensation.

Well ,you would be perfectly happy if he was an innocent man eh ?. Just as the Birmingham 4 pub bombers who served about 20 years in jail before being found innocent .Of course if the Capital Punishment Law had been in place those 4 wouldn`t be around to protest their innocence eh ? One of them ,the oldest male ,died inside anyway. That mentally slow male who was found guilty and jailed for the murder of Jil Dando ,yet another example of mistaken judgement ;Lucky he only served about 15 years before being released as innocent.
You really should rethink your suggestion of a return to Capital Punishment .
I remember the Pub Bombings well though . When they were released the crowds were protesting and booing . When asked if they agreed with innocent people being imprisoned many of them replied " we don`t care who it is as long as they put somebody inside !" ? What an attitude !!

 

[hell2bwith76]

Capital punishment would certainly deter the one who was being executed.

Yes, I already cited the Wests as potential candidates. It was his wife who was his partner in crime, nowhere has it been said that women can't be violent.

If you think violent people can never be 'cured' re-educated or rehabilitated, what would your answer be for every person who has commited a vilent crime?

Did you ever see what happened to The Yorkshire Ripper when he was inside for life ? He had one eye poked out with a Biro or some such tool .It`s no joyride for them i`m sure. That`s exactly why Fred West kllled himself ! He knew it was better being dead than life in prison.
I`ve read about some of these prisoners who have been rehabilitated and then let out as considered safe ...they go on to kill someeone ! within days Try reading th stories.

 

[hell2bwith76]

Capital punishment would certainly deter the one who was being executed.

A bit too late i should think ! Isn`t that a childish solution to violent crimes by men ?.

 

[hell2bwith76]

nowhere has it been said that women can't be violent.

I must be on the wrong thread . I thought this was the one where women seek equality and safey from violent men ?.

 

[CrazyCatLady]

Ruth Ellis anyone? Oh i forget ,women are not violent.

You really are a dick splash! There's so much information about the Ruth Ellis case out there and men like you are STILL throwing the 'crime of passion' balls in there!
Ruth Ellis was abused by men nearly all her life. She was sexually abused as a child, pimped out as a woman and David Blakely, the younger lover she shot, was not only known for beating her, but he'd forced her to go through a very unpleasant. illegal abortion. He had money, status and she was a victim of DV.
Back then, it was deemed a crime of passion, because as usual they wanted to blame the woman- she was seen as a slapper, a temptress, when actually by today's standards, her background of abuse and instability would have made her a vulnerable person.
She wasn't violent by any means. She was a victim that had had enough.

 

[CrazyCatLady]

Are you prepared ,as a woman (?) to state that any mature female should be able to walk down a modern street naked and that no males should even glance her way without sexual feelings ?
if so then your words on this thread are totally useless and you must have been raised in a Nunnery !

You feel how you feel- I never stated that any restrictions should be put on how a person feels, male or female, but a woman should definitely be able to walk the street naked without fear of being sexually assaulted and/or violated.
As the saying goes, you can look but don't touch. Your eyes can go anywhere- that's your right, but if you touch- that's not.
Not hard to comprehend.
As a supposedly evolved species, you should be able to refrain from acting on feelings.

But we're not arguing what you should look at, are we? We're talking about certain male attitudes towards women and how they these attitudes are contributing to or are the cause of women being murdered and sexually assaulted.

 

[Whiskers]

Wtf would anyone walk down the street naked fgs told you he's obsessed with body parts!

 

[CrazyCatLady]

You stupid stupid woman ( or excuse for one !). Why do you think men and women were put on the earth ? I`ll wait to see if you know the answer !

Oh no- a god botherer or at least, one of those that still believes in Adam and Eve!

I should have been warned I was arguing with someone from the Middle Ages.
Explains everything now!

Btw, men and women were not 'put on the Earth'.