The truth will do!

[Bad_Influence]

Pfft. Proper hard times. Dickens had NO clue!

Orwell was far more intelligent than Dickens apparently

 

[supercookie123]

Orwell was far more intelligent than Dickens apparently

Yeah but Charles wrote 'A Christmas Carol' and 'Down and Out in Paris and London' was shite. And 'Keep the Aspidistra Flying'. Rather save a Victorian chimney cleaning kid any day.

 

[Bad_Influence]

Yeah but Charles wrote 'A Christmas Carol' and 'Down and Out in Paris and London' was shite. And 'Keep the Aspidistra Flying'. Rather save a Victorian chimney cleaning kid any day.

Ahh feck em.... they are usually Liverpool fans anyway... no great loss pmsl

 

[supercookie123]

Ahh feck em.... they are usually Liverpool fans anyway... no great loss pmsl

Wonderful point. Am back down on the ground! Perspective.

 

[Bad_Influence]

Orwellian lives matter

 

[Moriarty]

I'm more of the opinion that history happened, but to discount it makes us blind to the current oppressions in the world.
Tearing down a statue of some 17th-18th century slave trader doesn't address that girls in Libya are sold for between $6 and $25 today in open slave markets.
It does nothing to address that slavery today is a much larger business than at any time in history.
That a lot of the money made by it is funnelled through London into off shore accounts.
To fight slavery we should respect and understand the suffering of those who have suffered in the past, but fight for those who suffer it now.

 

[ChloePsych]

Just curious. If there was a statue of jimmy Saville outside the local primary school would you let it stay? Would you have it removed? Or would you want a little plaque added that said 'He

raped a lot of children, but ​

did a load of charity work so not all bad'?

 

[Dong]

Just curious. If there was a statue of jimmy Saville outside the local primary school would you let it stay? Would you have it removed? Or would you want a little plaque added that said 'He

raped a lot of children, but ​

did a load of charity work so not all bad'?

 

[Dong]

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is often interred with their bones."

 

[supercookie123]

Just curious. If there was a statue of jimmy Saville outside the local primary school would you let it stay? Would you have it removed? Or would you want a little plaque added that said 'He

raped a lot of children, but ​

did a load of charity work so not all bad'?

I think the difference there is that when Jimmy Savile was defiling children, child sexual abuse was known to be an abhorrent crime. When people were off comitting surprise colonisations and discovering exotic, different-looking peoples, sadly, they were hampered by a lack of developed thinking.

 

[Wojcik]

Just curious. If there was a statue of jimmy Saville outside the local primary school would you let it stay? Would you have it removed? Or would you want a little plaque added that said 'He

raped a lot of children, but ​

did a load of charity work so not all bad'?

There's a distinct difference between the legal removal of a statue, and a rabid mob tearing it down themselves. Anyone who's caught in taking part in illegally ripping down a statue or destroying any historical artifact or scripture, should face legal punishment, including lengthy prison sentences.
And it's ironic that you brought up Savile as an example here, because each one of those institutes who promote BLM(The BBC, Sky, The Royal Family, politicians, film stars, musicians, businesses, corporations) right now, knew about Savile's secret of abusing children for many years.
And it is one of the most ludicrous hypothetical's that I've read in a while, considering Savile was instantly vilified, and his knighthood was revoked, that was of course until he was publicly ousted as the monster that he actually was. But they all knew about what he was up to. John Lydon of the Sex Pistols revealed that in an interview from the 80's, and then on Piers Morgan's "Life Stories" program.

 

[Wojcik]

I'm more of the opinion that history happened, but to discount it makes us blind to the current oppressions in the world.
Tearing down a statue of some 17th-18th century slave trader doesn't address that girls in Libya are sold for between $6 and $25 today in open slave markets.
It does nothing to address that slavery today is a much larger business than at any time in history.
That a lot of the money made by it is funnelled through London into off shore accounts.
To fight slavery we should respect and understand the suffering of those who have suffered in the past, but fight for those who suffer it now.

And you bring up a great point. Slavery does still exist. Human trafficking from Eastern Europe is still a problem that exists in the UK. But where is the outrage for that? There's a deafening silence, even when it has been exposed, people have turned a blind eye. Where are the protests for real slavery? Could it be the fact that these protesters will only protest in free countries where freedoms and rights still exist in western democracies? You've seen it with the Climate Change protests also. Protesting in a country that is doing far better to cut emissions than say China, Brazil or even India, but where are the protests there? We're seeing a lack of consistency with these protests, who claim oppression and slavery in these countries who base themselves on the principles of freedom and liberties. You can burn the American flag in protest, but if you did that in China, it may be the last thing you ever do.

 

[Bad_Influence]

What seems to have been conveniently forgotten/ignored is the fact that many slave traders and slave owners were black.
In 1830 there were approximately 3775 free black people who owned 12770 black slaves. Yet this is deliberately airbrushed out of history by BLM.

 

[Jo_King]

Just curious. If there was a statue of jimmy Saville outside the local primary school would you let it stay? Would you have it removed? Or would you want a little plaque added that said 'He

raped a lot of children, but ​

did a load of charity work so not all bad'?

Good point, well made, certainly got me thinking, first time for everything.

 

[WickedPerdition]

There's a distinct difference between the legal removal of a statue, and a rabid mob tearing it down themselves. Anyone who's caught in taking part in illegally ripping down a statue or destroying any historical artifact or scripture, should face legal punishment, including lengthy prison sentences.
And it's ironic that you brought up Savile as an example here, because each one of those institutes who promote BLM(The BBC, Sky, The Royal Family, politicians, film stars, musicians, businesses, corporations) right now, knew about Savile's secret of abusing children for many years.
And it is one of the most ludicrous hypothetical's that I've read in a while, considering Savile was instantly vilified, and his knighthood was revoked, that was of course until he was publicly ousted as the monster that he actually was. But they all knew about what he was up to. John Lydon of the Sex Pistols revealed that in an interview from the 80's, and then on Piers Morgan's "Life Stories" program.

Some excellent points made that I wholeheartedly endorse in this Forum thread.
In fact, your comments are so comprehensive, I do not feel the need to add anything.

 

[ChloePsych]

There's a distinct difference between the legal removal of a statue, and a rabid mob tearing it down themselves. Anyone who's caught in taking part in illegally ripping down a statue or destroying any historical artifact or scripture, should face legal punishment, including lengthy prison sentences.
And it's ironic that you brought up Savile as an example here, because each one of those institutes who promote BLM(The BBC, Sky, The Royal Family, politicians, film stars, musicians, businesses, corporations) right now, knew about Savile's secret of abusing children for many years.
And it is one of the most ludicrous hypothetical's that I've read in a while, considering Savile was instantly vilified, and his knighthood was revoked, that was of course until he was publicly ousted as the monster that he actually was. But they all knew about what he was up to. John Lydon of the Sex Pistols revealed that in an interview from the 80's, and then on Piers Morgan's "Life Stories" program.

You conveniently choose not to answer the question.

It's not ludicrous at all. It's a valid question.

When Colston's statue went up his involvement in slavery was well known. Slavery was illegal.

Don't use the question to make some other point. A simple answer will do.

 

[ChloePsych]

Some excellent points made that I wholeheartedly endorse in this Forum thread.
In fact, your comments are so comprehensive, I do not feel the need to add anything.

You could add an answer to the question.

 

[Bad_Influence]

Chloe, your generation is no different to any generation that has gone before, as much as you'd like to think it is. When we were 19 we believed we knew everything too. We thought our opinion was far more relevant than those 'oldies'.
Then a strange thing happens... It's called life, and eventually we realised, as you will, that our view on life was untainted, narrow, and ill-informed.
I know you will tell me I'm wrong, as would we when we were 19, but one day you'll sit down and realise that life has kicked the 'stupid' out of you. It happens to most of us one day.

 

[WickedPerdition]

You could add an answer to the question.

What question? The title of the thread is: 'The truth will do!' So, it is in fact a statement as opposed to a question.
I wonder if you will learn something from your petty exchanges with other Forum members.
You really ought to look up the definition of democracy before you engage in any multi-faceted arguments.

 

[Wojcik]

You conveniently choose not to answer the question.

It's not ludicrous at all. It's a valid question.

When Colston's statue went up his involvement in slavery was well known. Slavery was illegal.

Don't use the question to make some other point. A simple answer will do.

It's more of a hypothetical than a legitimate question. It's a 'what if?' scenario. It's pure fantasy. it's an irrelevant example regarding the point of legality in regards to dissembling a historical statue. So no, i won't be answering any absurd hypothetical's concerning this thread and the topic discussed.
If you want a "simple" answer, come up with a relevant example. Someone who is relevant to that historical period of slavery, and then i might take you seriously, and provide a "simple" answer.