Christ "learned obedience from the things he suffered"

[A_Son_of_God]

So, we're told in the Bible that Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered. (Hebrews 5:8-9)

Based on this then, if Jesus was God, which is a claim by some, there are some questions.

1) Who was Jesus learning to be obedient to, if he was God?

2) How was Jesus learning, if he was God?

Any explanation would be helpful. Feel free to explain it. Notice it is in the debate section, so presenting the other side would be helpful.

 

[Moriarty]

It depends on ones view point.
If Jesus was the Christ living amongst us does that argument make sense.
That Christ brought it upon himself to live among us to experience the life of mortals through his "Son" Jesus, not by surrogacy but by transference.
That Jesus was not an offspring of christ, but was christ himself made mortal by choice.

Would it not follow that he should be shown the path that mortals paved through thier lives, yet remain true to the teaching of the "Father"?
If Jesus was god incarnate, would it not make his trials and tribulations worth more morally if he suffered the life of a mortal yet was still "Good"?

To answer the 2 points you made.
1) Who was Jesus learning to be obedient to, if he was God?
If Jesus was Christ incarnate on earth then he learned obedience because he was not born an adult as Adam was, he was born a child which gave him a life in which to learn obedience if he was taught well by those who believed or formulated his own moral compass to right and wrong.

2) How was Jesus learning, if he was God?
Perhaps jesus as the incarnation of christ was learning the mortal perception of the world with its faith and fallacies, it's hope and hatred, its love and loss, to further his understanding of why perfection did not exist and that not all were created in his image.

It's a fun debate, thank you for it.
I always wondered why God and Jesus were viewed as separate yet one.
Perhaps we just simply haven't asked the simple questions which come before the complex ones.

Modern Science has learned a lot from old religion, these days questioning science is a taboo.
It used to be the other way round, you questioned science but had faith in religion.
Now religions are questionable, but people put blind faith in science.

 

[A_Son_of_God]

Thanks mate, for your explanation.

Still though, on those two questions, it leaves a problem.

You mentioned that maybe Jesus was "the incarnation of Christ". We're both acknowledging Jesus as the Christ in our examples, but being a Christ doesn't make Jesus God. Christ/Messiah - both these words are about being anointed. Chosen for a specific task.

So are you meaning that Jesus was some incarnation of God? Or are you yourself stating that Jesus is a separate entity to God?

Anyway, moving on - I'm presuming you meant God incarnate? - a point to remember is that the scripture states that Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered. Would you not admit that what he suffered was intensified at his death, and not as a child? A good example is when Jesus called out, "My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?" That feeling of being abandoned by God is very real. Jesus - being allowed to suffer all the way to death - must have learned a lot about the sinful nature of humans, in that he would never have been abandoned by God in any other time in his life. Yet, us humans, due to being sinful, have automatically a separation between us and God. So Jesus' feeling of abandonment by God was an important lesson for him in empathy and compassion, even though Jesus WAS empathetic and compassionate. It took it to a whole new level. Also, after his resurrection, he would have learned why God appeared to abandon him.

I also agree and like your point on science being the thing that people now blindly put faith in. But after analysis, it shows that they don't actually believe it, but it is their preference to dismiss other kinds of discussion with. They just use it as a dismissive way, and many aren't interested in discussing such things. What it does though, it allows them to choose an easy way out, instead of having to reason on things, or be confronted with things that are "wrong" that they do because they're out of harmony with what God expects from his servants.

To be honest, I don't even know if science is the thing. I see universities teaching science, and then I see the same universities teaching religion. So in the same building, they'll have a professor of anthropology, for instance, teaching that we came from apes, and also a professor of a religion, teaching the opposite. I think money is what the universities are worshipping, and the people just follow what they think is the best, due to the reputations these institutions have.

 

[Moriarty]

Thanks mate, for your explanation.

Still though, on those two questions, it leaves a problem.

You mentioned that maybe Jesus was "the incarnation of Christ". We're both acknowledging Jesus as the Christ in our examples, but being a Christ doesn't make Jesus God. Christ/Messiah - both these words are about being anointed. Chosen for a specific task.

So are you meaning that Jesus was some incarnation of God? Or are you yourself stating that Jesus is a separate entity to God?

Anyway, moving on - I'm presuming you meant God incarnate? - a point to remember is that the scripture states that Jesus learned obedience from the things he suffered. Would you not admit that what he suffered wa intensified at his death, and not as a child? A good example is when Jesus called out, "My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?" That feeling of being abandoned by God is very real. Jesus - being allowed to suffer all the way to death - must have learned a lot about the sinful nature of humans, in that he would never have been abandoned by God in any other time in his life. Yet, us humans, due to being sinful, have automatically a separation between us and God. So Jesus' feeling of abandonment by God was an important lesson for him in empathy and compassion, even though Jesus WAS empathetic and compassionate. It took it to a whole new level. Also, after his resurrection, he would have learned why God appeared to abandon him.

I also agree and like your point on science being the thing that people now blindly put faith in. But after analysis, it shows that they don't. They just use it as a dismissive way, and many aren't interested in discussing such things. What it does though, it allows them to choose an easy way out, instead of having to reason on things, or be confronted with things that are "wrong" that they do because they're out of harmony with what God expects from his servants.

To be honest, I don't even know if science is the thing. I see universities teaching science, and then I see the same universities teaching religion. So in the same building, they'll have a professor of anthropology, for instance, teaching that we came from apes, and also a professor of a religion, teaching the opposite. I think money is what the universities are worshipping, and the people just follow what they think is the best, due to the reputations these institutions have.

How to phrase this.

If one can imagine Jesus as the personification of God in mortal form.
As in God ceased to exist as an entity and became Jesus, as a babe to lets say "Test his thoeries"
I know, that sounds scientific, to an extent it is.

It would be saying God had multiple distinct existances.
When God takes mortal form does it become a life experienced, someone who lives, learns and loves for whatever life offers them or they take themselves.
Only after death and resurrection of the vessel used does God have new understanding of the mortal world.

Hence when Jesus asked why God had forsaken him, he wasn't actually asking God, he was asking himself.
Because God had forsaken him, he was God, but carnate.
God did not exist to him because he was in fact the living God on Earth, yet he believed God existed because of the religious upbringing Jesus had thanks to his parents and society.

By doing this God saw the world through the eyes of a mortal, when Christ died and was ressurrected, there was a new understanding, as God, of the mortal realm.

It's circular, if and when a new Christ by whatever name you give them does come into the mortal realm, would it to be to learn or to judge.
Could we not have already had many manifestions of God on earth, yet we don't know because miracles tend to bring attention.
Attention, then books, then theology, the ideology, then war and hate.

Could not God have been born a thousand times and died a thousand deaths to understand mortality?

If thats the case, then God really should show up and say..
Hey you all worship me, get a grip, I said what I said, how you interpret it, thats on you.
Can we stop all the war and hate please.
Not happened ..

 

[A_Son_of_God]

If one can imagine Jesus as the personification of God in mortal form.
As in God ceased to exist as an entity and became Jesus, as a babe to lets say "Test his thoeries"
I know, that sounds scientific, to an extent it is.

Hence when Jesus asked why God had forsaken him, he wasn't actually asking God, he was asking himself.
Because God had forsaken him, he was God, but carnate.
God did not exist to him because he was in fact the living God on Earth, yet he believed God existed because of the religious upbringing Jesus had thanks to his parents and society.

But how does any of this show him as learning obedience? Obedience to whom?
If Jesus was God himself, then he knew why he'd have forsaken him, as he would have been the God that he knew was no longer there. When he was baptised, a voice came out of heaven saying, "This is my son. The beloved." And another time God said the same, but added, "Listen to his voice." Who's voice was that? Jesus, tricking people?

Let's imagine it as it appears as to what you're saying then. Jesus, pretending to be himself, but knowing he was God, called out to himself "Why have you forsaken me?", yet he'd been preaching for three years of his father's ministry, and all this after the voice in heaven stated Jesus was God's son.
So Jesus just forgot that he was God for a bit? He'd been lying when he said, "Why do you call me good? Only one is good. The Father." and also when he said, "The Father is greater than I am"?

Learning obedience to oneself...Jesus never taught people that HE was god. But yes, he did tell them to worship the Father. In fact, he quoted the scripture in where God's holy name is used twice in the original language, when it says - NOT "Hear O Israel. The LORD our God is one God", but actually says, "Hear O Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Have a look at this on studybible.com, and look at the actual Hebrew wording there. It is linked here for you.

See, this "learning obedience" happened AFTER the events. As Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" at his death, it was obviously not there where he learned obedience. He was obedient, but didn't understand. It wasn't until his ascension to heaven - where he was resurrected by God, and not himself, as he was dead - that it happened somewhere down the line. So Jesus' learning obedience did not occur at his death, but later on. So again, he learned obedience, and to whom? Himself? He stated clearly he did not come to do his own will. If it was his own will then sure, you'd be able to say something like, "Maybe he learned obedience to himself", but he plainly tells us he isn't obedient to himself. Only to the Father.

Here are some other scriptures showing Jesus was not doing his own will.

Matthew 26:39
John 4:34
John 6:38

 

[Altair]

But how does any of this show him as learning obedience? Obedience to whom?
If Jesus was God himself, then he knew why he'd have forsaken him, as he would have been the God that he knew was no longer there. When he was baptised, a voice came out of heaven saying, "This is my son. The beloved." And another time God said the same, but added, "Listen to his voice." Who's voice was that? Jesus, tricking people?

Let's imagine it as it appears as to what you're saying then. Jesus, pretending to be himself, but knowing he was God, called out to himself "Why have you forsaken me?", yet he'd been preaching for three years of his father's ministry, and all this after the voice in heaven stated Jesus was God's son.
So Jesus just forgot that he was God for a bit? He'd been lying when he said, "Why do you call me good? Only one is good. The Father." and also when he said, "The Father is greater than I am"?

Learning obedience to oneself...Jesus never taught people that HE was god. But yes, he did tell them to worship the Father. In fact, he quoted the scripture in where God's holy name is used twice in the original language, when it says - NOT "Hear O Israel. The LORD our God is one God", but actually says, "Hear O Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Have a look at this on studybible.com, and look at the actual Hebrew wording there. It is linked here for you.

See, this "learning obedience" happened AFTER the events. As Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" at his death, it was obviously not there where he learned obedience. He was obedient, but didn't understand. It wasn't until his ascension to heaven - where he was resurrected by God, and not himself, as he was dead - that it happened somewhere down the line. So Jesus' learning obedience did not occur at his death, but later on. So again, he learned obedience, and to whom? Himself? He stated clearly he did not come to do his own will. If it was his own will then sure, you'd be able to say something like, "Maybe he learned obedience to himself", but he plainly tells us he isn't obedient to himself. Only to the Father.

Here are some other scriptures showing Jesus was not doing his own will.

Matthew 26:39
John 4:34
John 6:38

You are questioning your own belief.

What you are trying to do is 'validate' GOD and Jesus.

How can you validate something 'Supernatural'?

You can't right now and you never can.

The belief in any GOD's has gone on for far too long.

The Bible is a great book. King James 1st and 2nd Testament. It's about 'Stories' of the time. It is not Factual, never has been and it never will be.

Still a great story book.

Get on with you life and try to do the best you can with yourself and everyone around you.

No GOD is needed for that.

If you insist on having faith in something, have Faith in yourself first, before you inject a supernatural GOD into it and all the problems that come with it.

The day any GOD greets us with his/her/it's presence i shall forever remain a none believer in God's.

Have your belief in GODS but keep it real.

Mike Tyson was an expert boxer. Who would you rather have in your corner if you were surrounded by bad guys outside a bar / restaurant / your home?... Mike Tyson or GOD?

 

[A_Son_of_God]

You are questioning your own belief.

What you are trying to do is 'validate' GOD and Jesus.

How can you validate something 'Supernatural'?

You can't right now and you never can.

The belief in any GOD's has gone on for far too long.

The Bible is a great book. King James 1st and 2nd Testament. It's about 'Stories' of the time. It is not Factual, never has been and it never will be.

Still a great story book.

Get on with you life and try to do the best you can with yourself and everyone around you.

No GOD is needed for that.

If you insist on having faith in something, have Faith in yourself first, before you inject a supernatural GOD into it and all the problems that come with it.

The day any GOD greets us with his/her/it's presence i shall forever remain a none believer in God's.

Have your belief in GODS but keep it real.

Mike Tyson was an expert boxer. Who would you rather have in your corner if you were surrounded by bad guys outside a bar / restaurant / your home?... Mike Tyson or GOD?

God.

Thanks for asking.
Also, notice that you tell me what I should do, yet I don't tell you what YOU should do. Why is that? I thought all you god-haters complain about having things "shoved down your throat". See, this is shoving things down people's throat. You tell me what I should do with the information you present. Well, no, I shouldn't. You're entitled to your own opinions, as am I, but to claim "god botherers" and that info is shoved down your throat is a disgrace, when the facts are YOU are the one attempting to make changes in the other person.

Don't do it. Just enjoy the debate. Or don't.

 

[Altair]

God.

Thanks for asking.
Also, notice that you tell me what I should do, yet I don't tell you what YOU should do. Why is that? I thought all you god-haters complain about having things "shoved down your throat". See, this is shoving things down people's throat. You tell me what I should do with the information you present. Well, no, I shouldn't. You're entitled to your own opinions, as am I, but to claim "god botherers" and that info is shoved down your throat is a disgrace, when the facts are YOU are the one attempting to make changes in the other person.

Don't do it.

I haven't told you to do anything. !

Thanks for the weird response.. i was expecting it.!

I will do what ever i want to do.

You can't stop me.

 

[A_Son_of_God]

I haven't told you to do anything. !

Thanks for the weird response.. i was expecting it.!

Yet you said:
- "You are questioning your own belief. "

- "You can't right now and you never can."

- "Get on with you life and try to do the best you can with yourself and everyone around you."

- "...have Faith in yourself first, before you inject a supernatural GOD into it and all the problems that come with it."

- "Have your belief in GODS but keep it real."

Weird response hey? It appears you must be unaware of what you are actually typing.

I will do what ever i want to do.

You can't stop me.

You are terrible at staying on topic, or even getting points. And in this comment, you demonstrate you don't even know what you're actually typing. There is no point to discuss things with you as I don't think you can understand very well simple structure. Welcome to ignore. Talk behind my back instead.

 

[Altair]

I enjoy debate. But not when the OP is editing their post every 5 mins..

 

[Altair]

Yet you said:
- "You are questioning your own belief. "

- "You can't right now and you never can."

- "Get on with you life and try to do the best you can with yourself and everyone around you."

- "...have Faith in yourself first, before you inject a supernatural GOD into it and all the problems that come with it."

- "Have your belief in GODS but keep it real."

Weird response hey? It appears you must be unaware of what you are actually typing.

You are terrible at staying on topic, or even getting points. And in this comment, you demonstrate you don't even know what you're actually typing. There is no point to discuss things with you as I don't think you can understand very well simple structure. Welcome to ignore. Talk behind my back instead.

Yet you said:
- "You are questioning your own belief. "

- "You can't right now and you never can."

- "Get on with you life and try to do the best you can with yourself and everyone around you."

- "...have Faith in yourself first, before you inject a supernatural GOD into it and all the problems that come with it."

- "Have your belief in GODS but keep it real."

Weird response hey? It appears you must be unaware of what you are actually typing.

You are terrible at staying on topic, or even getting points. And in this comment, you demonstrate you don't even know what you're actually typing. There is no point to discuss things with you as I don't think you can understand very well simple structure. Welcome to ignore. Talk behind my back instead.

I'm Terrible...Fine by me...Tara.... WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

 

[Altair]

He's put me on ignore....I wonder why that is?..

Poor fella...Sulking in his dreams of GOD saving him from MY WRATH...

No Chance...!

 

[A_Son_of_God]

"I enjoy debates" you say.
Yet you don't know how to debate points. In fact, not once have you stayed on topic.
LOL

I'm sure he thinks he's a scientist too, because he read something on wikipedia.

He says to the imaginary audience...

 

[Altair]

"I enjoy debates" it says.
Yet it doesn't know how to debate points. In fact, not once has it stayed on topic. What a dumbarse! LOL
I'm sure this thing thinks it's a scientist too, because he read something on wikipedia.

He says to the imaginary audience...

Imaginary audience?... I don't need an audience let alone an imaginary one.

It is YOU that worships something 'Imaginary', NOT me.

Science explains things with facts and proof to back up those facts.

When has your GOD backed up ANYTHING with FACTS and PROOF?

 

[cidal]

Imaginary audience?... I don't need an audience let alone an imaginary one.

It is YOU that worships something 'Imaginary', NOT me.

Science explains things with facts and proof to back up those facts.

When has your GOD backed up ANYTHING with FACTS and PROOF?

Is your job to own this clown? You do know he is not like a Jesus lover.. he loves himself...he needs you to feed him. Ok sure, he is so fucking annoying. But Im a drunk who feeds him even when he doesnt talk to me! What is your excuse? Sometimes being smart and well -read is not enough, being self-aware helps.. if this is the only *** you have left talking back to you get trophies and lies in here cos you own him.. how is a guy like you feel like this is where you can succeed? Weird..you're bright as ****..yet..o hwell.. played elsewhere so sorry for doubling it.. but seems like it would be lovely for you...

 

[Raining_Roses]

While Cidel’s vibrant loathing was break-dancing over the lines of acceptably volatile (even for me!), I can’t help but agree! Alas, we live in the age of the internet, where your local friendly* Jo-Ho no longer has to wait until Sunday morning for his attempt to indoctrinate the masses- he has access to the world wide web!

Shall we have a little re-cap on what he would like you sacrifice in order to please the imaginary man in the sky and save yourself from an Armageddon that will happen anyway (science, baby!):
Blood transfusions- even if it will save yours or another’s life!
Any kind of tradition or anything you used to enjoy or celebrate, such as your birthday or anything they see as remotely ‘Pagan’ (Kill that pumpkin and banish it’s rotting corpse from your doorstep, you heathens!)
Reporting child abuse by members or reporting any kind of reporting of abuse within their ‘communities’- you will then be expected to cover up and ignore said abuse.
Your family and friends- unless they’re a Witness, you will be ‘encouraged’ to disconnect from them and/or limit contact.
Your identity- you will be part of a collective that will scrutinise and judge everything you do, your job and your interactions.
Your dignity- because you will be expected to attempt to brainwash others into your lie.
Your integrity as a human being- when you start targeting those that are grieving and/or mentally ill or struggling with life to be in your ‘gang’.

But it’s not a ‘cult’.

Like the offspring of many (correction, all) patriarchal religions, if you’re a woman, you’re a dirty, sinful biatch until you’re put right by a good, forcefully dominant Jo-Ho man. And don’t forget, you lot with a vagina are alllll cognitively challenged and shouldn’t open your mouths (or legs) until ordered to by your father or husband.
And like ALL religions/cults, being a member requires enough arrogance to think you and everything you believe in is THE WORD. You are all the world needs to save these poor, pathetic souls that don’t have the massive ego that your imaginary buddy has given you.

Any and all challenge to that illusion of superiority will be derided, belittled and seen as being the work of a ‘troll’. Ironic, seeing as the Jo-Ho’s were often regarded as ‘Trolls’ on a Sunday morning, with The Watchtower making good barbeque fuel on a Summer’s afternoon for most.

(*‘friendly’=disguised compliance, then grooming, until they find the weakness in you and the right time to whack you with their gumpf)

 

[dotcom]

Hebrews 5: 7-8
Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

This is to show that when man says what does this Glorious enthroned Jesus know about my life down here?. Jesus can answer I lived the same life as you, I struggled with everything just like you yet i remained obedient and through my suffering i learned what it is to be obedient as a human being so that I can look you in the eye and say I know what your going through and you will know that I am sympathetic to your struggles.

 

[Yorkie1]

Obedience is overrated if you ask me

 

[Moriarty]

While Cidel’s vibrant loathing was break-dancing over the lines of acceptably volatile (even for me!), I can’t help but agree! Alas, we live in the age of the internet, where your local friendly* Jo-Ho no longer has to wait until Sunday morning for his attempt to indoctrinate the masses- he has access to the world wide web!

Shall we have a little re-cap on what he would like you sacrifice in order to please the imaginary man in the sky and save yourself from an Armageddon that will happen anyway (science, baby!):
Blood transfusions- even if it will save yours or another’s life!
Any kind of tradition or anything you used to enjoy or celebrate, such as your birthday or anything they see as remotely ‘Pagan’ (Kill that pumpkin and banish it’s rotting corpse from your doorstep, you heathens!)
Reporting child abuse by members or reporting any kind of reporting of abuse within their ‘communities’- you will then be expected to cover up and ignore said abuse.
Your family and friends- unless they’re a Witness, you will be ‘encouraged’ to disconnect from them and/or limit contact.
Your identity- you will be part of a collective that will scrutinise and judge everything you do, your job and your interactions.
Your dignity- because you will be expected to attempt to brainwash others into your lie.
Your integrity as a human being- when you start targeting those that are grieving and/or mentally ill or struggling with life to be in your ‘gang’.

But it’s not a ‘cult’.

Like the offspring of many (correction, all) patriarchal religions, if you’re a woman, you’re a dirty, sinful biatch until you’re put right by a good, forcefully dominant Jo-Ho man. And don’t forget, you lot with a vagina are alllll cognitively challenged and shouldn’t open your mouths (or legs) until ordered to by your father or husband.
And like ALL religions/cults, being a member requires enough arrogance to think you and everything you believe in is THE WORD. You are all the world needs to save these poor, pathetic souls that don’t have the massive ego that your imaginary buddy has given you.

Any and all challenge to that illusion of superiority will be derided, belittled and seen as being the work of a ‘troll’. Ironic, seeing as the Jo-Ho’s were often regarded as ‘Trolls’ on a Sunday morning, with The Watchtower making good barbeque fuel on a Summer’s afternoon for most.

(*‘friendly’=disguised compliance, then grooming, until they find the weakness in you and the right time to whack you with their gumpf)

Are any of the billions of believers in God wrong?

Can you prove they are?

No more than They can prove they are right.

Just because we do not understand a thing, should not mean we discount it.
Otherwise modern physics would never have existed and the computer or mobile phone you are writing on would never have come into being.

Science is just as much a religion as any other, it is based on what one see's, which is as illusionary as what one believes.

 

[A_Son_of_God]

Blood transfusions- even if it will save yours or another’s life!

This is a scriptural command. Just because other denominations take blood does not mean it is not a biblical command. Feel free to look at the other article that was specifically about blood that was discussed earlier.

Any kind of tradition or anything you used to enjoy or celebrate, such as your birthday or anything they see as remotely ‘Pagan’ (Kill that pumpkin and banish it’s rotting corpse from your doorstep, you heathens!)

No. Not anything pagan. Anything involving false religion.

Reporting child abuse by members or reporting any kind of reporting of abuse within their ‘communities’- you will then be expected to cover up and ignore said abuse.

Incorrect. To start with, the issue of child abuse is dealt with both inside the congregation, and as there is a legal precedence to report, all child abuse is reported outside the congregation. Never has it been an acceptable practice. To clarify, child abuse is ALWAYS sexual immorality. Outside of the marriage arrangement for one woman and one man, this is deemed sexually immoral. It goes outside of the parameters of what God requires.

Your family and friends- unless they’re a Witness, you will be ‘encouraged’ to disconnect from them and/or limit contact.

The only time any form of encouragement to disconnect and limit association with friends/relatives is on two accounts.
1) The person is a bad associate. For instance, if I was an alcoholic, and I had friends who wanted to encourage me to drink, it is a wise choice to stop associating with them. Therefore, if I choose to give up my former lifestyle which was immoral, or opposite to the things I was wanting to be, then choosing to avoid bad associations is wise. So that depends on what the person does, and it is a protection for us. We're not obligated to continue hanging around our abusers, for example, because they're deemed "friend" or "family".
2) If a person was baptised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and has chosen to reject it. They are - as the Bible states - to be treated as a person of the nations. Jesus didn't say hate the person of the nations. But there was a separation. Just as you yourself would have certain people who you choose not to hang around, but you probably don't hate them. I'm sure your front door isn't open for anyone to just come in who you don't know.

Your identity- you will be part of a collective that will scrutinise and judge everything you do, your job and your interactions.

If people are judging one another, they are not getting the point of Jesus' message at all. You not being one of Jehovah's Witnesses are judging Jehovah's Witnesses, and even me. So, can I consider you "the collective" that scrutinises and judges everything I do? Because you do.

Your dignity- because you will be expected to attempt to brainwash others into your lie.

Being clean before God - never had as much dignity. Thanks. As for brainwashing/lies, there are no lies. Those who choose to join know full well what the Bible teaches, and they take it on themselves to dedicate their lives to God, through the name of Jesus Christ, knowing what to expect. In fact, the truth sets us free from lies. While people are all worried about stuff, we are given insight into matters, and understand why things happen. Even being foretold as to what is coming. We're blessed. We're happy.

Your integrity as a human being- when you start targeting those that are grieving and/or mentally ill or struggling with life to be in your ‘gang’.

This doesn't even make sense. Gang? Targetting? Jehovah's people talk to everyone. If everyone is "grieving and/or mentally ill or struggling", then so be it. But why do you make it out as something sinister?