Women are being injected with date rape drug in nightclubs.

[CrazyCatLady]

Thank you.
You just made my point.

My orignal post in reply to Flatline was :-

Me to.
Neither can I comprehend a women deliberately having unprotected sex with a guy when she knows she is not protected, then getting pregnant and railing his ass for child support.
But it happens.

There are always risks in any action, no matter how rare.

Including going to a bar where one may or may not get drugged and raped.

As for the rest, I need more beer for that

Hence why since the '90's women have been aware of drink-spiking; why we used to drink out of bottles; why we had to spent another £1-2 on a bottle top in clubs to prevent our drinks being spiked.
Hence why women have to be cautious going out at night and stick to lit places.
Hence why we take the contraceptive pill; get jabbed every month; get pieces of wire stuck into our uterus.
Hence why we dress in certain ways to not attract attention.
Women are constantly thinking of the consequences of their actions. Shame some men don't.

 

[Moriarty]

Hence why since the '90's women have been aware of drink-spiking; why we used to drink out of bottles; why we had to spent another £1-2 on a bottle top in clubs to prevent our drinks being spiked.
Hence why women have to be cautious going out at night and stick to lit places.
Hence why we take the contraceptive pill; get jabbed every month; get pieces of wire stuck into our uterus.
Hence why we dress in certain ways to not attract attention.
Women are constantly thinking of the consequences of their actions. Shame some men don't.

Choice ?

 

[CrazyCatLady]

Choice ?

Choice of what?

 

[Moriarty]

It's the choices we make that define who we are, what befalls us, how our life turns out.

Without risk there is no reward.
We go to a bar with the hopes of having a good time, getting laid, finding "The One", always knowing the risks.
We accept the risks and do it anyway.
Hopefully we have friends who can protect us from something bad happening.
Sometimes we do, sometimes we dont, by choice.

In everything we do, there is choice, there is risk, you said it yourself.
Dont let your experience or opinion base your understanding of reality.

sh** happens to everyone and whilst I have all the sympathy in the world for those who get abused, in any way, it was by choice they were where they are.

No that is not Victim blaming, it's simply, what word did you use?
Its a "Realist" point of view
That is the social problem, how does one remove risk without removing choice?

Only by removing the rights of the many to protect the few.
These cases, as are the ones I talk about, very rare.
People are smart, they stick with friends for protection in a hostile enviroment.

It's either we take personal resposibility or we take legal ones.
The balancing act between freedom to choose and legislated behaviour is a very fine one.

We already have laws against the spiking of drinks, the drugging of women for sex.
Rightly so.

I simply turned it round about the legislation for men to be protected against certain very rare actions of some women.
Which is sadly lacking, but not the point.

Sorry, but I did tell you long ago I just play devils advocate for fun

 

[Saphire]

Choice ?

Choice?
No one can choose not to be drugged, abused, raped or murdered.
The choice is on the drugger, abuser, rapist or murderer not to do it.

 

[Moriarty]

Choice?
No one can choose not to be drugged, abused, raped or murdered.
The choice is on the drugger, abuser, rapist or murderer not to do it.

Not if you choose to go to a night club knowing the risks.
Just as you get in a car, as Crazy said.
You never know what can happen.

Who is at fault?
Someone breaking the law probably.

 

[Saphire]

Not if you choose to go to a night club knowing the risks.
Just as you get in a car, as Crazy said.
You never know what can happen.

Who is at fault?
Someone breaking the law probably.

Are you being serious?

Did you actually say 'probably'.

 

[CrazyCatLady]

Are you being serious?

Did you actually say 'probably'.

I've had a few of those moments with Moriarty's posts tonight too.

Is it the beer, I wonder?

 

[Moriarty]

I've had a few of those moments with Moriarty's posts tonight too.

Is it the beer, I wonder?

Yes it was the beer. (Or to be more literal, my "choice" to drink those extra beers)
Had to come in and find out what kind of chit show I wrote, sometimes that extra couple of cans really makes a difference.

At the time I was looking at the metaphysical argument rather than the actual one brought up by the posts in the discussion.
That we cannot predict whether an action will or will not have a particular outcome.
That only by choice do we find ourselves in situations which may be either beneficial or detrimental to ourselves or others.

As Saphire said.
Choice?
No one can choose not to be drugged, abused, raped or murdered.
The choice is on the drugger, abuser, rapist or murderer not to do it.

The logical answer to that is, don't go to a bar, the risks are known.
If one is not in a bar drinking, one cannot have ones drink spiked for example.
More on that later though, so don't go postal on that point.

I'm not arguing the "Rightness" of that point, everyone should be free to do and say what they want within the legal framework we have.
No one should be abused by another, that is why we have law's which limit behaviour.
But the action/reaction which led to the cases in question is always choice's made by both parties.

It's a philosophical and rational debate, one that seems to be unwelcome these days as it's focus is more on personal responsibility compared to protection offered by the state.

That is the problem here, those protections offered by the state, the laws, the social contract and the policing that enforce them, have failed to protect.
So whats the answer?
More laws, more police, more controls I don't think so, I think it should be more choice.

Earlier this year Baroness Jenny Jones was pilloried for suggesting in Parliament that there should be a 6pm Curfew on men.
It was not a serious statement of intended law, but a suggection, one that has merit.

What would happen if men self-imposed that idea and stayed home on say Friday night so women and girls could go out without fear?
It's a rational, logical answer, it gives men the choice to help by simply doing nothing, it protects women, I see no down side.
Given enough social pressure it would work.

Would it ever happen, most probably not.
Because people will cry about thier "Rights" a word they seem to misunderstand.
Rights come with the responsibility not to abuse them, or the social contract that gives one those rights.
People forget that responsibility, hence we have crime.

Perhaps if the state cannot protect people as it should and people don't abide by the social contract, then something like a self imposed 6pm Curfew on Friday nights for men should be openly discussed.

Yes I know there are many potential obstacles, for example nightclubs, shops, taxi's, etc etc will still require staff many of which would be male.

Is it not worth at least thinking and/or talking about seriously without the "But Mu Eqaulity" or "When are the Wamen Crfewed?" that some men will cry.
Or the inevitable "But it's the evil Patriarchy making the choice about us women as usual" that some women will cry.
Who cares, if it works?

I know I would be all for it, I hardly ever go to the pub so why not and if I did, there are another 6 days of the week when I could.

Note, just using Friday night as an example, it should be one night at weekend though to benefit the most.
So, I'll let the moaning start about that idea, "I cant do Friday", "But there will be no men" etc etc etc.
Never said it would be easy to talk about, but maybe we should.


Anyway, rambling, my bad.
Sober to, damn.

So I'm sorry for the deranged postings of the other night, as I said, beer over indulgence induced tangent, happens sometimes.
I will get back on topic and answer Crazys posts later

 

[Saphire]

Are you sure you are sober now?
The above post is as daft as the ones you made the other night.

 

[Moriarty]

Are you sure you are sober now?
The above post is as daft as the ones you made the other night.

Yep sober.
Maybe I need a few drinks to make it more understandable

 

[Moriarty]

Are you sure you are sober now?
The above post is as daft as the ones you made the other night.

Ok had a few beers now.

So, I wont go into the metaphysical, not a page turner. Fair enough.
Nor the BS platitudes, they dont work.

So what, exactly, are you looking for Saphire?
How do we solve a problem that has existed since the beginning of the human race, or any other race for that matter?
That some males will abuse females, it's a given, a fact.
How do we change that?

Do we test men to see if they have a "Rape" gene?
Do we subject them to psychological testing at an early age?
Do we mandate that all men wear an ankle tracker so we know when they are potentially dangerous because they are to close to a women?
Do we mandate a "Pre-Crime" mentality and force men to stay away from women?

All those ideas have been floated by academics in the past.

I'm curious how one could stop rape without complete tyranny.

If you take into consideration that most filicides are done by mothers, should we stop women having children as they "May" be a risk?

If you look at the broad spectrum of crime in society, there are people who are fecked up.

How do you fix broken people?
Answer that and there would never be a reason for a subject like this to be raised ever again.
Everyone would be safe, everyone would be satisfied with thier life.

Until someone can answer that, it will happen.

Thats just the "Realist" talking.

 

[Saphire]

What you don't do is treat the male species as if they are all potential rapists or woman abusers, the vast majority of men in civilised countries are decent and caring.

What we can do is stop victim blaming. Women make choices to live their lives...rapists make choices to rape, abusers make choices to abuse, and murderers make choices to murder.

Womens aid charities, sheltered housing for domestic abuse sufferers all need more funding, they can work together to ensure women are safe when they need help from existing abuse.
Night time venues, pubs, clubs, etc, need to work together to ensure women are safe when they are out at night.
These places can do more to help....one good idea is providing free anti spike kits in clubs, so women can test for drugs if they believe their drink has been spiked.
If anyone is caught interfering with anyones drink...far tougher sentences.
Obviously in the event of serious abuse, rape or murder, the highest sentences possible should be given.
In the UK rape can be given a life tarrif...instead, a paltry few years is usually given, and out of all rapes committed, only a paltry few ever make it to court in the first place.

Street lighting, cctv, better controlled night time transport, crackdowns on bogus private hire taxis, more police presence out on the streets at night, there are many things that can be done to ensure women are safer in our country.

For future generations...education, for both sexes, and police the internet better. Boys who talk to girls like dirt both online and off, have a good chance of growing into men who t reat women like dirt.

 

[Moriarty]

What you don't do is treat the male species as if they are all potential rapists or woman abusers, the vast majority of men in civilised countries are decent and caring.

What we can do is stop victim blaming. Women make choices to live their lives...rapists make choices to rape, abusers make choices to abuse, and murderers make choices to murder.

Womens aid charities, sheltered housing for domestic abuse sufferers all need more funding, they can work together to ensure women are safe when they need help from existing abuse.
Night time venues, pubs, clubs, etc, need to work together to ensure women are safe when they are out at night.
These places can do more to help....one good idea is providing free anti spike kits in clubs, so women can test for drugs if they believe their drink has been spiked.
If anyone is caught interfering with anyones drink...far tougher sentences.
Obviously in the event of serious abuse, rape or murder, the highest sentences possible should be given.
In the UK rape can be given a life tarrif...instead, a paltry few years is usually given, and out of all rapes committed, only a paltry few ever make it to court in the first place.

Street lighting, cctv, better controlled night time transport, crackdowns on bogus private hire taxis, more police presence out on the streets at night, there are many things that can be done to ensure women are safer in our country.

For future generations...education, for both sexes, and police the internet better. Boys who talk to girls like dirt both online and off, have a good chance of growing into men who t reat women like dirt.

Your first line sums the problem up in it's entirety.

When parents instill respect in thier children they tend to turn out to be pretty decent adults.

There will always be a section of a society that dont, thats where schools or other outside organisations take over.

Now, this is gonna trigger some

Male teachers.

The education system is now mostly female driven, there are many less male teachers than there used to be.
For many reasons which I wont address (apart from bitching about false rape accusations costing male teachers thier careers and sometimes thier lives, but anyway)

You dont "Care" young boys into respect, you discipline them.

The father is the one with the big stick, the mother is the reasonable one, it's the way families work mostly.
It has nothing to do with abuse, simply that a son should be taught to respect, not fear, his family and by extension everyone else.

Kids need both care and discipline, if the family cant provide it, then the education system must, but it wont.
Young boys need something, be it a boxing club, martial arts, something that instills respect and control.

I see my best mate and some of the asshats his daughters bring home, they think they are the chit.
They dont address him as Mr (insert surname) nor his wife as Mrs (same surname hopefully), they dont understand that family and therefore life is a heirarchy.

Yet one of his daughters generally only dates guys from the forces, they are respectful always.
Although she did stab one of her ex's, but who knows.
Anyway.

Discipline is what makes a man, only then can he control aggresion, care is what makes a women.
Call me old fashioned, but chit, it has worked for a few thousand years.