Why are such teachings never questioned? Are people scared to answer them?

A

A_Son_of_God

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Surah 8:60 says this, in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an:

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

So, breaking it down, we see three "targets" for terror:

1) The enemies of Allah
2) The enemies of the followers of Muhammad
3) "...others besides, whom ye may not know..."

So, who specifically does point 3 refer to? To "strike terror into the hearts of" whom ye may not know is very broad in scope.

Some think that this scripture was applied to Muhammad's days, and the wars that were going on. And this is fine in theory, but the problem is, if we consider the Muhsin/Khan version, it says this:

"And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly."

So, knowing that in Muhammad's day, he didn't have planes or tanks (admittedly, "missile" could be a javelin, and artillery could be some boulder fired from some trebuchet style device), how is this verse demonstrated to be restricted to Muhammad's day?

My stand is that these verses do not relate to Muhammad's day, but to all days, and that it is an instruction to all who follow Muhammad to strike terror into everybody's hearts.

I look forward to hearing an opposing side.
 

cidal

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Jeremiah 4.20 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, so why post bullshit on the net just to feel like you matter? Thy should log off once in a while and not be a massive anal fistula.
 
A

A_Son_of_God

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Once again, sewer cidal (with a little c, because his name isn't a proper noun, according to him. He's more clevererer than that) makes known his inability to debate, and has to change the subject. LOL!

Anyway, anyone with the ability to answer according to the question, I look forward to your argument. Genuinely. I mean, there's the thought that if someone genuinely seeks truth, they are willing to hear and reason on any argument that is logically presented. So, considering such things are the matter of faith for some people, let's discuss truth, and at least, let's see the other side presented. We don't have to disagree, but there must be a side presented in favour of the quoted surah. Or even the reasoning around the narrators who write such things. I'm sure that not all Muslims would follow such teachings, so maybe they have a different understanding of what is written there.

Looking forward to real humans with answers.
 

cidal

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Once again, a lonely man takes me seriously to make a point for a God.. wow. What kind of dick leaves a guy like me not reading beyond his first sentence? I think a guy who is a waste of everyone's time. A guy who needs to find meaning on the net and I end up helping him.

I'd usually think anyone alone or need of help .. well ****. no one should be alone.

I think it applies even to a total and utter cumsplash like you...


A loser like you wi8l hide behind a made up god.. that is ok. The tune is for you. I don't know how to ignore you here.. so you have me, you ***. See, I am kind.
 
A

A_Son_of_God

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You see, such questions are raised with the goal of attempting to understand the why's of things. It is sad that the only response is trolling.

If we don't understand why something happens, or at least, we claim that our reasons are correct without looking at the facts, we are no better than the doctor who does not do tests, but claims some illness is a common one because many of the symptoms are common. What it leads to is a misdiagnosis, and no solution to curing the disease. In some cases, it may even rightly lead to a lawsuit, and the doctor losing his position.

In this case, the disease is the attacking of people everywhere physically by means of nutjobs who claim God is supporting their attack.

While Israel is bombing Gaza - and I'm not supporting the bombing of anywhere, nor the deaths of people - it has to be remembered that this Hamas who they're out to get is established specifically as a sect of Islam to ensure that Israel doesn't exist. But this sect is involved heavily in politics, as Israel is. So would it not be wise for those of us who may be Muslims to have a think about what they're "defending", because just as Israel exists due to political agreement on the part of some, so does Palestine. It is the same. And in response to the bombing of Israel, Israel is not annihilating Islam all over the world. Islam though seems to want to target all Jews. It isn't just Israel that is being attacked, but in line with that surah quoted earlier, people are attacking anyone, because they are following a specific teaching that Islam remains silent on. The Israeli government appears to want to annihilate Hamas. I mean, their actions are a direct result of having an enemy in amongst their midst who have determined to wipe them out, and consistently attack the people. Israel responds violently, but nonetheless, they respond. To say that they initiate is simply untrue. Sure, it must happen in instances, but the whole establishment of Israel, in the place where Israel used to be, is under attack from those who already attack others. Consistently, ever since their establishment.

This is why it is important to discuss it. If people don't discuss religion, they will never understand it. So all their solutions will be ones based on ignorance. Not on fact. Like that doctor that presumes that the symptoms are all the same without any testing done.

And no, I'm not a Muslim. Nor a Jew. So if you THINK your beliefs are based on truth, then why are you not able to defend it, and why do you take offence in discussing it, when it could be the means for life? If you have the truth, then you should be able to reason on it. The majority aren't interested in truth. Not in this matter. But for those of us who are, then have a think about things, and start using your thinking ability.

Therefore, I ask again.

How do you - the Muslim who genuinely loves God - explain the surah mentioned above? If you have truth, then save my life, as I'm of the aforementioned belief, based both on evidence of how people act, and of evidence that it is written down as a key belief in the Qur'an. Explain it to me please, so that I know that the claim that you're really a "religion of peace" as one American politician once called it.
 

TheBabayaga

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Surah 8:60 says this, in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an:

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

So, breaking it down, we see three "targets" for terror:

1) The enemies of Allah
2) The enemies of the followers of Muhammad
3) "...others besides, whom ye may not know..."

So, who specifically does point 3 refer to? To "strike terror into the hearts of" whom ye may not know is very broad in scope.

Some think that this scripture was applied to Muhammad's days, and the wars that were going on. And this is fine in theory, but the problem is, if we consider the Muhsin/Khan version, it says this:

"And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly."

So, knowing that in Muhammad's day, he didn't have planes or tanks (admittedly, "missile" could be a javelin, and artillery could be some boulder fired from some trebuchet style device), how is this verse demonstrated to be restricted to Muhammad's day?

My stand is that these verses do not relate to Muhammad's day, but to all days, and that it is an instruction to all who follow Muhammad to strike terror into everybody's hearts.

I look forward to hearing an opposing side.

says this, in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an:

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

So, breaking it down, we see three "targets" for terror:

1) The enemies of Allah
2) The enemies of the followers of Muhammad
3) "...others besides, whom ye may not know..."

So, who specifically does point 3 refer to? To "strike terror into the hearts of" whom ye may not know is very broad in scope.

Some think that this scripture was applied to Muhammad's days, and the wars that were going on. And this is fine in theory, but the problem is, if we consider the Muhsin/Khan version, it says this:

"And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly."

So, knowing that in Muhammad's day, he didn't have planes or tanks (admittedly, "missile" could be a javelin, and artillery could be some boulder fired from some trebuchet style device), how is this verse demonstrated to be restricted to Muhammad's day?

My stand is that these verses do not relate to Muhammad's day, but to all days, and that it is an instruction to all who follow Muhammad to strike terror into everybody's hearts.

I look forward to hearing an opposing side.
Obviously it refers to a state of war, [ unfortunately it happens a lot ] whatever you may want it to mean, you should know this: It is dispicable to involve non combatants ie Children, women and those who surrender. Also war is a last resort and some one who has it in their heart [ ie war mongering] has a sickness in it. No one wants war. Maybe look at other verses that promote everyday dealings with people instead of verses that do not relate to the average person in normal curcumstances?
 

TheBabayaga

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You see, such questions are raised with the goal of attempting to understand the why's of things. It is sad that the only response is trolling.

If we don't understand why something happens, or at least, we claim that our reasons are correct without looking at the facts, we are no better than the doctor who does not do tests, but claims some illness is a common one because many of the symptoms are common. What it leads to is a misdiagnosis, and no solution to curing the disease. In some cases, it may even rightly lead to a lawsuit, and the doctor losing his position.

In this case, the disease is the attacking of people everywhere physically by means of nutjobs who claim God is supporting their attack.

While Israel is bombing Gaza - and I'm not supporting the bombing of anywhere, nor the deaths of people - it has to be remembered that this Hamas who they're out to get is established specifically as a sect of Islam to ensure that Israel doesn't exist. But this sect is involved heavily in politics, as Israel is. So would it not be wise for those of us who may be Muslims to have a think about what they're "defending", because just as Israel exists due to political agreement on the part of some, so does Palestine. It is the same. And in response to the bombing of Israel, Israel is not annihilating Islam all over the world. Islam though seems to want to target all Jews. It isn't just Israel that is being attacked, but in line with that surah quoted earlier, people are attacking anyone, because they are following a specific teaching that Islam remains silent on. The Israeli government appears to want to annihilate Hamas. I mean, their actions are a direct result of having an enemy in amongst their midst who have determined to wipe them out, and consistently attack the people. Israel responds violently, but nonetheless, they respond. To say that they initiate is simply untrue. Sure, it must happen in instances, but the whole establishment of Israel, in the place where Israel used to be, is under attack from those who already attack others. Consistently, ever since their establishment.

This is why it is important to discuss it. If people don't discuss religion, they will never understand it. So all their solutions will be ones based on ignorance. Not on fact. Like that doctor that presumes that the symptoms are all the same without any testing done.

And no, I'm not a Muslim. Nor a Jew. So if you THINK your beliefs are based on truth, then why are you not able to defend it, and why do you take offence in discussing it, when it could be the means for life? If you have the truth, then you should be able to reason on it. The majority aren't interested in truth. Not in this matter. But for those of us who are, then have a think about things, and start using your thinking ability.

Therefore, I ask again.

How do you - the Muslim who genuinely loves God - explain the surah mentioned above? If you have truth, then save my life, as I'm of the aforementioned belief, based both on evidence of how people act, and of evidence that it is written down as a key belief in the Qur'an. Explain it to me please, so that I know that the claim that you're really a "religion of peace" as one American politician once called it.
I dont think you know what you are talking about. how on earth is Hamas a "sect" and want to wipe out all of Isreal. Im assuming by wipeout you would mean target absolutely nothing to do with, already traumatised innocent women and children, babies in hospitals, in incubators and of course lets not mention those who flee the fighting right? Maybe mention that because thats exactly what Isreal has been doing. Maybe mention these innocent people have now exceeded 20,000 an not even counting those under the rubble of 50% plus homes destroyed. This is why you do not know what you are talking about. You can't even state the obvious. It is a sign you don't believe in your own faith or have doubts when to justify it, you have to resort to trying to bad mouthing some one elses. Why do that
 
A

A_Son_of_God

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Obviously it refers to a state of war, [ unfortunately it happens a lot ] whatever you may want it to mean, you should know this: It is dispicable to involve non combatants ie Children, women and those who surrender. Also war is a last resort and some one who has it in their heart [ ie war mongering] has a sickness in it. No one wants war. Maybe look at other verses that promote everyday dealings with people instead of verses that do not relate to the average person in normal curcumstances?
So...
In a state of war, it is excusable to target everyone, is it?

See, this is the point. The surah says, "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly."

So breaking it down, does this not say specifically to STRIKE TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF...ENEMIES, AND OTHERS BESIDES WHOM YE MAY NOT KNOW?

See, this is the part that I want the explanation for.

To say that the Qur'an has lovely verses on how an ant does this and that is not an issue. The above verse is. So, when a person presents a scripture from the Bible, and claims it means Christians should do this or that, it is explained. That's why I'm here. To explain it.

So, how do you explain that this is not for the "average" muslim? Should the average muslim NOT read the Qur'an, nor follow its teachings then?
 
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A_Son_of_God

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I dont think you know what you are talking about. how on earth is Hamas a "sect" and want to wipe out all of Isreal.
It is a sect, in that it expresses its version of Islam differently to the mainstream. Explain how it is not.
As for wanting to wipe out all of Israel, that is their actual policy. You can read up on the history of their charter here, should you - or anyone else - want to. It's public.
You will notice that article 2 states it is "one of the branches of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine", or in other words, a sect.
Im assuming by wipeout you would mean target absolutely nothing to do with, already traumatised innocent women and children, babies in hospitals, in incubators and of course lets not mention those who flee the fighting right?
I'm not asking about the war in Israel. It is about the verse in the Qur'an. Do you, or do you not, have an explanation for it?
If you asked me, "Why are you wearing a hat?" and I said, "But HE'S wearing a hat!", that is not an answer to the question. That is what you're doing by not acknowledging it as written, when it is, and you know it, but you can't answer it without the deflection of "but THEY'RE doing it!". It doesn't answer the question. Do you, or do you not, know?
Maybe mention that because thats exactly what Isreal has been doing. Maybe mention these innocent people have now exceeded 20,000 an not even counting those under the rubble of 50% plus homes destroyed.
See, now you're being specific about the war. You're stating "Israel is targetting Hamas, who wish to destroy Israel and remove them off the face of the earth, and Hamas went into a nightclub and killed hundreds of INNOCENT people and took others captive, but that's okay, because it was Muslims who did it, but Israel - boo hoo hoo - is now bombing the crap out of the very people who claim that they'll help destroy Israel. But they're retaliating. They shouldn't BE allowed to retaliate!" Is this what you're saying?

This is why you do not know what you are talking about. You can't even state the obvious.
Deflecting the obvious by claiming it as inobvious is pathetic, and not an answer. It's a simple question. How do you, or how does any Muslim explain this verse? Why are you irate because you've been asked about your faith? Are you ashamed of it? Are you non-knowledgable of it? What is the reason you are offended because it is asked of you, and how do you think Islam will be the religion of peace if your explanation to it being in there is "But look! Israel this and Israel that!"?
It is a sign you don't believe in your own faith or have doubts when to justify it, you have to resort to trying to bad mouthing some one elses. Why do that
Bad-mouthing? It's your book that has it written in there. If it was the truth, you'd be able to explain it without getting your knickers in a knot. But you can't. It helps my faith. It establishes more and more that God has been most merciful with me and allowed me to be unveiled by the lies of false religion.

It is a sign that YOU have doubts in your faith because you blindly follow it and can't explain it. Not mine. If I have a question about my beliefs, I do the homework and try to understand. And if it was false, I abandon the false teachings.

I am surprised that you find me asking a Muslim to explain a verse in the Qur'an is classified as lack of faith. This is why I studied the Qur'an. So I could do as the Qur'an says. Confirm - one way or the other - if indeed it is in harmony with the pattern of healthful teachings. It simply isn't. But maybe one of a more reasonable-minded, and educated, Muslim will be able to explain this verse, instead of just deflecting and saying, "Don't ask questions about the Qur'an, because Israel this and that."
 
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TheBabayaga

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It is a sect, in that it expresses its version of Islam differently to the mainstream. Explain how it is not.
As for wanting to wipe out all of Israel, that is their actual policy. You can read up on the history of their charter here, should you - or anyone else - want to. It's public.

I'm not asking about the war in Israel. It is about the verse in the Qur'an. Do you, or do you not, have an explanation for it?
If you asked me, "Why are you wearing a hat?" and I said, "But HE'S wearing a hat!", that is not an answer to the question. That is what you're doing by not acknowledging it as written, when it is, and you know it, but you can't answer it without the deflection of "but THEY'RE doing it!". It doesn't answer the question. Do you, or do you not, know?

See, now you're being specific about the war. You're stating "Israel is targetting Hamas, who wish to destroy Israel and remove them off the face of the earth, and Hamas went into a nightclub and killed hundreds of INNOCENT people and took others captive, but that's okay, because it was Muslims who did it, but Israel - boo hoo hoo - is now bombing the crap out of the very people who claim that they'll help destroy Israel. But they're retaliating. They shouldn't BE allowed to retaliate!" Is this what you're saying?


Deflecting the obvious by claiming it as inobvious is pathetic, and not an answer. It's a simple question. How do you, or how does any Muslim explain this verse? Why are you irate because you've been asked about your faith? Are you ashamed of it? Are you non-knowledgable of it? What is the reason you are offended because it is asked of you, and how do you think Islam will be the religion of peace if your explanation to it being in there is "But look! Israel this and Israel that!"?

Bad-mouthing? It's your book that has it written in there. If it was the truth, you'd be able to explain it without getting your knickers in a knot. But you can't. It helps my faith. It establishes more and more that God has been most merciful with me and allowed me to be unveiled by the lies of false religion.

It is a sign that YOU have doubts in your faith because you blindly follow it and can't explain it. Not mine. If I have a question about my beliefs, I do the homework and try to understand. And if it was false, I abandon the false teachings.

I am surprised that you find me asking a Muslim to explain a verse in the Qur'an is classified as lack of faith. This is why I studied the Qur'an. So I could do as the Qur'an says. Confirm - one way or the other - if indeed it is in harmony with the pattern of healthful teachings. It simply isn't. But maybe one of a more reasonable-minded, and educated, Muslim will be able to explain this verse, instead of just deflecting and saying, "Don't ask questions about the Qur'an, because Israel this and that."
I nor you for that matter have any real theoligical knowledge, unless you have a masters I am unaware of. I know this much as I have tested it , in fact the Quran literaly challenges people to bring forward something similar. First 10 verses, then reduced to a single one . This is the only book I know of that has never been changed by man/woman. It is 100% authentic, so YES, if there is a verse like the one you quoted, then it will have been relevant for a particular time and place, War is a nasty affair and of course there are verses that deal with this. IT DOESNT MEAN GO KILL ALL INFIDELS . My impression is you don't know much at all about religion, have never sat down and spoken with a Muslim with an open mind. This trying to find fault in other peoples beliefs is just a reflection of your own insecurities ! btw wtf has a hat got to do with anything.
 
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A_Son_of_God

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I nor you for that matter have any real theoligical knowledge, unless you have a masters I am unaware of.
I wonder what school of thought Jesus went to. Also, what about Muhammad. What masters or doctorate did he have? I think you place too high the man on the pedestal, looking for letters at the ends of names to establish true/false. The Qur'an is written down, so therefore, it can be examined by all. So is the Bible.
I know this much as I have tested it , in fact the Quran literaly challenges people to bring forward something similar.
They have. One is called The Book of Mormon. There is also The Holy Piby. There are many books like it, written by one man over a period of a few years, claiming them as new revealings by God about his purposes, but they all seem to contradict one part or another of the flow of books over the 1600 years of book collection preceding it. The Qur'an actually states ten times that if those people back then read "that which is WITH..." them, they'd be able to confirm it as true. But we today have those books that Muhammad said for them to look at. They hadn't been changed. If they had, Muhammad would not have said that they were the books that were "WITH" them, would he have. He'd have said instead, "that which you ONCE HAD". But he didn't, because it hadn't been changed.
First 10 verses, then reduced to a single one . This is the only book I know of that has never been changed by man/woman.
Al-Bukhari - the one claimed as the most important hadith scholar - demonstrates that the Qur'an WAS changed. Many times. There is no necessity to revert to lying. I don't know why it is deemed as necessary. There are many hadiths that speak of verses that were missed. In fact, the most commonly known big change in the Qur'an, if you are not aware of it, I am surprised, as it means you don't listen to your Imam. Uthmann made changes to the Qur'an. Removing verses he deemed as unacceptable and non-canonical. So to say that the Qur'an has not been changed by any man or woman is completely wrong. Every Muslim should know this.
This is one hadith. Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 509
But you should read the next one.
It is 100% authentic, so YES, if there is a verse like the one you quoted, then it will have been relevant for a particular time and place, War is a nasty affair and of course there are verses that deal with this.
Ok, so in war then, a muslim is to strike terror in the heart of their enemies, yes?
And also the enemies of Allah, yes?
And also others who you don't know, but who Allah knows, yeah?

How do you do the last one? How do you strike terror in the heart of someone who YOU don't know, but Allah knows? And if you're going to say it isn't you who is being asked to do it, then tell me why it is you who is being asked in the other two instances, and not that one. Can you - from that verse - define their ages? Their sexes? Their social standing? Their height/colour/weight/nationality/language/educational standard?
No.
IT DOESNT MEAN GO KILL ALL INFIDELS .
I didn't say it did. I said the above. So, what DOES it mean?
My impression is you don't know much at all about religion, have never sat down and spoken with a Muslim with an open mind.
You're entitled to your opinion. The basis for your impression though is very weak. But you're entitled to it.
This trying to find fault in other peoples beliefs is just a reflection of your own insecurities ! btw wtf has a hat got to do with anything.
I'm not trying to find fault. I already have. I'm trying to find an explanation. Because it's about true/false, see. Simple really. And it isn't about others' beliefs. They - as are you - are entitled to believe in the tooth fairy for all I care. But this is about MY beliefs. This is about knowing I have the truth or not. Because I don't want to waste one second of my time devoting my short life to any falsehoods. So, being the good person you are, who has the true religion, I have genuine questions. You though take offence that I have, and view it as a lack of faith. Consider it a quest for truth. And in a way you're right. I HATE false religion. Just as God does. God hates all the lies about him that have made him out as a monster to many people, and those that continue these lies will NOT GO UNPUNISHED by God.

Thanks to Jesus though, we have great mercy expressed on us by God. God is the one inspiring the governments to remove all false religion, and Jesus is the king who is assigned to break up all of the Devil's works. One main part of Satan's handiwork is false religion. Jesus will dash it to pieces, as he will his other enemies in the last day. But this is not a human war. This is a spiritual war.
 
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Kev45

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Religious extremists, in this particular instance specifically Jehovah Witnesses, with a prod and a poke, always reveal their true colours eventually. Cowardly, airing their personal hatred of Muslims while hiding behind the cloak of Jehovah, in a sly attempt to frame and disguise their own personal views as theological debate.

Most importantly though, in relation to this particular thread, Jehovah FORBIDS participation in politics of any kind and which is strictly forbidden.

When a Jehovah Witness repeatedly airs his views specifically regarding the conflict in Gaza and Muslims in general, followed by a deluge of totally irrelevant word salad and after openly stating that they are a Jehovah follower, forbidden to get involved in politics, with the war in Gaza being political, then their real motive is exposed, right?

Gobby arseholes like me will insult others openly and overtly, say it how we see it, however this sausage disguises all his abuse and insults within a torrent of black font but then still has the utter audacity to loudly complain when his sly provocation provokes the negative reaction he so desired.


An online troll is a troll is a troll.
 

Kev45

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"Maintain your neutrality in a divided world

The Bible gives several reasons why God requires that we remain neutral. For example, we follow the teachings and example of his Son, Jesus Christ, by being “no part of the world,” avoiding its politics and wars. (John 6:15; 17:16) We must remain neutral in order to be loyal subjects of God’s Kingdom. Otherwise, how could we have a clean conscience when we preach the good news that only God’s Kingdom can solve mankind’s problems? Additionally, unlike false religions that divide their members by meddling in politics, true worship preserves our international brotherhood by helping us to remain neutral.—1 Pet. 2:17."

(Organisation in control)
 

TheBabayaga

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I wonder what school of thought Jesus went to. Also, what about Muhammad. What masters or doctorate did he have? I think you place too high the man on the pedestal, looking for letters at the ends of names to establish true/false. The Qur'an is written down, so therefore, it can be examined by all. So is the Bible.

They have. One is called The Book of Mormon. There is also The Holy Piby. There are many books like it, written by one man over a period of a few years, claiming them as new revealings by God about his purposes, but they all seem to contradict one part or another of the flow of books over the 1600 years of book collection preceding it. The Qur'an actually states ten times that if those people back then read "that which is WITH..." them, they'd be able to confirm it as true. But we today have those books that Muhammad said for them to look at. They hadn't been changed. If they had, Muhammad would not have said that they were the books that were "WITH" them, would he have. He'd have said instead, "that which you ONCE HAD". But he didn't, because it hadn't been changed.

Al-Bukhari - the one claimed as the most important hadith scholar - demonstrates that the Qur'an WAS changed. Many times. There is no necessity to revert to lying. I don't know why it is deemed as necessary. There are many hadiths that speak of verses that were missed. In fact, the most commonly known big change in the Qur'an, if you are not aware of it, I am surprised, as it means you don't listen to your Imam. Uthmann made changes to the Qur'an. Removing verses he deemed as unacceptable and non-canonical. So to say that the Qur'an has not been changed by any man or woman is completely wrong. Every Muslim should know this.
This is one hadith. Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 509
But you should read the next one.

Ok, so in war then, a muslim is to strike terror in the heart of their enemies, yes?
And also the enemies of Allah, yes?
And also others who you don't know, but who Allah knows, yeah?

How do you do the last one? How do you strike terror in the heart of someone who YOU don't know, but Allah knows? And if you're going to say it isn't you who is being asked to do it, then tell me why it is you who is being asked in the other two instances, and not that one. Can you - from that verse - define their ages? Their sexes? Their social standing? Their height/colour/weight/nationality/language/educational standard?
No.

I didn't say it did. I said the above. So, what DOES it mean?

You're entitled to your opinion. The basis for your impression though is very weak. But you're entitled to it.

I'm not trying to find fault. I already have. I'm trying to find an explanation. Because it's about true/false, see. Simple really. And it isn't about others' beliefs. They - as are you - are entitled to believe in the tooth fairy for all I care. But this is about MY beliefs. This is about knowing I have the truth or not. Because I don't want to waste one second of my time devoting my short life to any falsehoods. So, being the good person you are, who has the true religion, I have genuine questions. You though take offence that I have, and view it as a lack of faith. Consider it a quest for truth. And in a way you're right. I HATE false religion. Just as God does. God hates all the lies about him that have made him out as a monster to many people, and those that continue these lies will NOT GO UNPUNISHED by God.

Thanks to Jesus though, we have great mercy expressed on us by God. God is the one inspiring the governments to remove all false religion, and Jesus is the king who is assigned to break up all of the Devil's works. One main part of Satan's handiwork is false religion. Jesus will dash it to pieces, as he will his other enemies in the last day. But this is not a human war. This is a spiritual war.
Im not into these long pointless debates. I find they usualy serve some ones personal inner difficulties trying to grasp what the meaning of life is. Me, I am happy with my Religion, it's beautiful, it keeps me out of trouble and I wish I could practise it more. I hope the best for you.
 
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A_Son_of_God

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Im not into these long pointless debates. I find they usualy serve some ones personal inner difficulties trying to grasp what the meaning of life is. Me, I am happy with my Religion, it's beautiful, it keeps me out of trouble and I wish I could practise it more. I hope the best for you.
All good mate. I'm glad you're happy, and I wish you peace in your life.
 

cidal

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All good mate. I'm glad you're happy, and I wish you peace in your life.Th
All good mate. I'm glad you're happy, and I wish you peace in your life.
Does anyone believe this asshat wishes anything good on anyone? Like is this had a poll .. him and his white mods in general chat.. they get it. They talk bullshit.. make up bullshit.. and then their whiteness wishes us well?

Yeah ok. Oh by the way.. if any of you come to HK.. buy Pocky.. at the supermarket.. ..no, it is not a sex toy. Chocolate covered little breadsticks.,. also.. ,happy ending massages is not a myth...and many of you seem like you need one. So.. Pocky first.. then undo your cuntiness.
 

rubbersoul

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You see, such questions are raised with the goal of attempting to understand the why's of things. It is sad that the only response is trolling.

If we don't understand why something happens, or at least, we claim that our reasons are correct without looking at the facts, we are no better than the doctor who does not do tests, but claims some illness is a common one because many of the symptoms are common. What it leads to is a misdiagnosis, and no solution to curing the disease. In some cases, it may even rightly lead to a lawsuit, and the doctor losing his position.

In this case, the disease is the attacking of people everywhere physically by means of nutjobs who claim God is supporting their attack.

While Israel is bombing Gaza - and I'm not supporting the bombing of anywhere, nor the deaths of people - it has to be remembered that this Hamas who they're out to get is established specifically as a sect of Islam to ensure that Israel doesn't exist. But this sect is involved heavily in politics, as Israel is. So would it not be wise for those of us who may be Muslims to have a think about what they're "defending", because just as Israel exists due to political agreement on the part of some, so does Palestine. It is the same. And in response to the bombing of Israel, Israel is not annihilating Islam all over the world. Islam though seems to want to target all Jews. It isn't just Israel that is being attacked, but in line with that surah quoted earlier, people are attacking anyone, because they are following a specific teaching that Islam remains silent on. The Israeli government appears to want to annihilate Hamas. I mean, their actions are a direct result of having an enemy in amongst their midst who have determined to wipe them out, and consistently attack the people. Israel responds violently, but nonetheless, they respond. To say that they initiate is simply untrue. Sure, it must happen in instances, but the whole establishment of Israel, in the place where Israel used to be, is under attack from those who already attack others. Consistently, ever since their establishment.

This is why it is important to discuss it. If people don't discuss religion, they will never understand it. So all their solutions will be ones based on ignorance. Not on fact. Like that doctor that presumes that the symptoms are all the same without any testing done.

And no, I'm not a Muslim. Nor a Jew. So if you THINK your beliefs are based on truth, then why are you not able to defend it, and why do you take offence in discussing it, when it could be the means for life? If you have the truth, then you should be able to reason on it. The majority aren't interested in truth. Not in this matter. But for those of us who are, then have a think about things, and start using your thinking ability.

Therefore, I ask again.

How do you - the Muslim who genuinely loves God - explain the surah mentioned above? If you have truth, then save my life, as I'm of the aforementioned belief, based both on evidence of how people act, and of evidence that it is written down as a key belief in the Qur'an. Explain it to me please, so that I know that the claim that you're really a "religion of peace" as one American politician once called it.
Hamas exist only because of the Israeli Occupation and all of it's terrible actions.
 

Moriarty

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Hamas exists to wipe out Jews wherever they may be, according to thier own Doctrine.
Zionism, not to be confused with being Jewish, are two very different mindsets.
One is faith based the other is an ideological belief which wishes to bring back Greater Isreal which incorperates most of the Middle East,

Both sides see it as an existential war.

Which means it never ends well.
 

rubbersoul

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THe difference is that one side is an occupying colonial power the other is a resistance movement. The fact that it was created as a resistance movement confirms that it is the occupation that created Hamas. Sine qua non.
 
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A_Son_of_God

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Hamas exist only because of the Israeli Occupation and all of it's terrible actions.
No.
Hamas exists because it is a political religion. They prostitute themselves to the kings of the earth to do their bidding. That's why they are so involved in politics. Because without other rulers, they're weak, and have no actual faith in God. They wish to demonstrate their lack of faith in God by taking actions into their own hands that God has plainly stated to not be part of. Instead, they're telling themselves, "God is so weak, but WE say he is strong, so let's act on God's behalf, because we don't believe God can take care of his own problems, and we don't want to be seen liars, even if we are." Faithless, and disgusting in their filth.

Regardless of the actions of others, THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE ONE FOR THEIR BAD ACTIONS! I hear this excuse often amongst Islam. I don't know why though. But I'm serious when I ask a person why, their answer often is, "You Americans did it first!" (even though I'm not American), or as in this instance, "Israel did it first!" So in other words, there are NO answers, except this pathetic, brainless copout by people who simply don't know anything, but lies. God himself is inspiring what it to come of false religion. He's going to annihilate it. Just watch and see! It is a prophecy in the Bible, of which Islam claims the Qur'an confirms, but when shown it doesn't, it's claimed it's been changed, and when shown it hasn't, they are silent with no answer still. Not even an iota of interest in investigating to see if true/false at all by the majority. Just silence.

A whole organisation, claiming some allegiance to God, specifically created to destroy a people. Disgusting blasphemy.

Jesus has warned all - from all religions and other similar organisations that hold good people in it, "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

It's up to us whether we look at religion or not to heed God's warning to remove ourselves from falsehoods.
 
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