Welfare reforms

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Well we all saw this coming for the last 2 years. Its no surprise what they have done. They want to cut PIP payments from £97 down to £50 by 2028

Scrapping the work capability assessment for universal credit – the process currently used to determine eligibility for incapacity benefit payments based on someone’s fitness for work – in 2028, to be replaced by a single assessment considering the impact a person’s disability has on daily living, rather than their fitness to work.

– legislating to tighten the eligibility for Pip, with a higher threshold for someone to qualify.

"The assessment will be recorded on video to build trust"
"New claims for PIP will be paid at the new lower rate"
Between now and 2028 they will reassess every one on PIP, unless your in a wheelchair and need a career, you wont get PIP. Those left on it will paid at the new lower rate since its a "NEW" claim for PIP.

“Right to try”
This means people on PIP will be called into local UC office and "encourage" to find work. I think this will be every two weeks like normal for UC. People who cant make into UC office will get phone/video appointments with online journals being review. If people don't have a phone, they will just give them one like they have been doing for the last few years.

"If you miss this mandatory Universal Credit appointment without what we believe to be a good reason, your payment will be affected. This is called a sanction."
I'm sure they know most people on PIP wont turn up for appointments after being left alone for years. Sanctions will be handed out more regularly.

The government's determined to cut PIP and other sickness benefits. They wont be reverse by a change of government, and I cant see Keir Starmer doing a "u turn". This is the man who took away the winter fuel payments

 

[Muppz]

"If you miss this mandatory Universal Credit appointment without what we believe to be a good reason, your payment will be affected. This is called a sanction."
I'm sure they know most people on PIP wont turn up for appointments after being left alone for years. Sanctions will be handed out more regularly.

You do know Universal Credit and PIP are two separate things ?

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

How much will PIP be in 2025?


This means that from the 7th of April 2025, the elements and rates of PIP will increase to the following amounts: Enhanced daily living component = £110.40 per week (up from £108.55) Standard daily living component = £73.90 per week (up from £72.65) Enhanced mobility component = £77.05 per week (up from £75.75)

PIP is an "top up" benefit. Most people who receive "PIP" also claim other benefits such as ESA. ESA ended this year and people claiming it are being moved onto UC.

Its hard to believe anyone could live on £73.90 PIP rate alone unless their living at home with family.

For those who do live on their own in rented accommodation, local councils covered the cost, that is coming to end too this year.

For example:

ESA at £90.50 per week
PIP at £73.90 per week.
Accommodation at £100 per week

The total is about £264 per week. (These are the " low rates" and accommodation is a estimate.)

To answer the question are Universal Credit and PIP are two separate things ?

It was before, if you claim ESA, PIP and cost of rent, there was no need to attend UC office.

They have taken away the cost of accommodation from local councils for those under pension age by moving people from ESA to UC.

Its hard to claim PIP on its now without claiming UC unless your a millionaire. ( PIP's not means tested.)

Right now its hard to say PIP and UC are two separate things for single people. With the end of of ESA, you cant receive one without the other. I think that's the point of it

UC sanction's mean all payments will stop, this would include PIP I believe.

 

[DurhamLad]

"If you miss this mandatory Universal Credit appointment without what we believe to be a good reason, your payment will be affected. This is called a sanction."
I'm sure they know most people on PIP wont turn up for appointments after being left alone for years. Sanctions will be handed out more regularly.

You do know Universal Credit and PIP are two separate things ?

It reads to me that the OP is saying there'll be sanctions imposed and the parallel is Universal Credit.

I wonder how much it will cost to administer? Will the net savings/cost be anywhere near what the government is claiming?

'Reckon we all know that within any group of human beings there are some who abuse the system, but I feel Starmer's appeal to morality isn't quite right. Where is the morality when it comes to large businesses using Covid and war in another part of the world to reset prices (food, energy, and so on), and as a result many people are choosing between one and the other? Where is the morality when huge sums of taxpayers' money leak out to the banks and the like in the form of interest related to private contracts in the public sector?

'Could be a case that the Labour Party's donors are dictating who exactly should be under scrutiny when it comes to 'morality'.

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Well if we the forget the politics for a moment.

In the past, once you did the assessments for PIP and ESA.... that was it. You didn't need to do much else. You could go 10 years without seeing staff at the job center.

The simple truth is some people get better over time. Its hard to spot them without repeating the assessment process once again.

For example:

A person was in a car crash, for the first year they needed extra support. They claim ESA and PIP.
Over time that person conditions improved to the point where they could live a "normal" independent life.
Payments of ESA and PIP would still continue until that person decided to end their claim, most don't.

What I'm being told is:

UC staff are now trained mental health first aiders
UC offices are full of CCTV and interviews are monitored and recorded.

Its been clear for a while people put considerable effort into passing ESA and PIP assessments. It going to hard to keep that up with interviews at UC offices every few weeks.

In the financial year ending 2024, benefit fraud and error resulted in a total of £9.7 billion in overpayments, representing 3.7% of total benefit expenditure. Of this, £7.4 billion (2.8%) was due to fraud.

I feel the key saving will come from reducing benefit fraud. Those who have claimed PIP and ESA in the past may lose it. People should see these "interviews" in person as "mini assessment" And if they feel that person no longer meets the requirements of ESA and PIP it will stop. Its hard to argue with 6 months of recorded interviews at the UC office.

And before anyone steams into the local UC office and "has a go" at the person interviewing them, its really got nothing to do with them. Its the person you cant see watching and listening in, carrying out the reviews making the decisions using CCTV.

 

[DurhamLad]

I feel the key saving will come from reducing benefit fraud. Those who have claimed PIP and ESA in the past may lose it. People should see these "interviews" in person as "mini assessment" And if they feel that person no longer meets the requirements of ESA and PIP it will stop. Its hard to argue with 6 months of recorded interviews at the UC office.

Is this benefit fraud or a change to the criteria?

I don't know a great deal about the whole thing admittedly, but I get the impression that the government believe the current criteria is too generous (and unsustainable).

I wonder how much all of this will cost to administer, inflated due to inefficiencies in the system?

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Is this benefit fraud or a change to the criteria?

I don't know a great deal about the whole thing admittedly, but I get the impression that the government believe the current criteria is too generous (and unsustainable).

I wonder how much all of this will cost to administer, inflated due to inefficiencies in the system?

I feel some people are playing on their disability's . If your a low skilled single worker in say Tescos on £12.21 per hour doing 35 hours per week.

The gross is £427.35.

The net would be £375 and you'd still have to pay council tax.

Above I worked out the PIP and ESA amounts on the lower rates, these two amounts are really close. Lets face it, no one is going to stack baked beans in Tescos while they get almost the same on welfare.

And this is the issue the government are trying to solve. How do you make work pay for single people?

In part its reducing benefit fraud to a point. People who can work will be forced to look for a job.
The criteria for those who can work was changed to include more people.

If you think about last 20 years, there were a lot more Job center's around. Government's have cut job center's to the bone and put it all online reducing the admin cost. I'd say a short 10 min interview at the UC office would cost under £5.

A PIP assessment would cost about the same as seeing a nurse at your local surgery for an hour, so round the £50 for the hour?

"AI" now carry's out a pre check on all forms, only pasting few to "real people" when necessary. This really speeds up the process. This reduces the cost of setting up a new claim or any changes.

 

[Kev45]

"Its been clear for a while people put considerable effort into passing ESA and PIP assessments."

"I feel some people are playing on their disability's"

Exactly the same misinformation and negative language as on the PIP thread posted in July last year by the OP when he was "Confused-Fred".

"Its funny I'm only seeing reply's from those don't work."

"but there's nothing physically wrong with them.... it's just mentally illness."...

Etc.

Edited: After his original "Confused_Fred" ID was banned in chat last July for constantly arguing with women in chat (arguments he lost) and for MOD abuse.

Knowing full well there were people in chat, then, in receipt of PIP.

A vengeful, spiteful, ghoul, who then brought it to the forum to seek his revenge.



To be clear, the taskmasters at the Draconian DWP measured PIP fraud to be so low in 2024 it is zero, and DLA fraud so low it is zero.

Zero percent fraud rate for PIP, DWP figures show

Get the benefits you're entitled to: help with personal independence payment (PIP), universal credit (UC), employment and support allowance (ESA),disability living allowance (DLA). Claims, assessments, reviews, appeals.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk

"I feel the key saving will come from reducing benefit fraud."

So widespread fraud clearly does not exist within the current PIP system, no matter what people read in the Daily Express or from their favourite right wing site.

No matter what they tell you on internet blogs such as this one.

Most fraud occurs in the Tory "flagship" UC, of which a breakdown is not available to distinguish if they are working or not. Commonly under-declaration of income, followed by failure to provide evidence or engage with the Jobcentre.

Btw, human error (over/under payments etc) by the DWP are also INCLUDED in fraud figures, so we don't know if it is actually "fraud" or DWP "error".

Now this is an important point as "Fred" has previously claimed to have been an "advisor" for the CAB and so you would presume that he would be aware of the actual facts here.

PIP is a 'benefit' that is not means tested and enables ALL disabled and chronically sick people, both in work and out, to live as "normal" a life as they can, and it is not specifically an out of work benefit.

PIP determines how severe these issues are with a points system.

PIP claimants provide medical evidence from experts. Fill out a hugely complex form (50 pages) and attend a WCA (health assessment) in order to qualify for PIP, conducted by the likes of Capita or Atos etc and currently by a company called Maximus among others.

Most people know how corrupt the assessors were (are), as it was widely publicised at the time, for example only reaching 36% of the required standard and paid bonuses to "fail" eligible claimants.

600 suicide deaths were linked to these assessments between 2010 and 2013 after similar so-called "reform" under the coalition, and no doubt that figure is far higher, but unfortunately the DWP REFUSE to release information that will tell us more. 230,000 assessments led to new mental health conditions and 725,000 extra prescriptions of anti-depressants. 150+ government "reviews" were carried out to ask why and when we are told "we still don't know why"....

IB to ESA work capability assessment linked to almost 600 additional suicides

Get the benefits you're entitled to: help with personal independence payment (PIP), universal credit (UC), employment and support allowance (ESA),disability living allowance (DLA). Claims, assessments, reviews, appeals.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk

Even terminally ill people have been denied PIP or sanctioned while dying in hospital.

82 benefit claimants have died after some alleged DWP activity such as termination of benefits, BBC finds | Disability Rights UK

www.disabilityrightsuk.org

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Background information: Fraud and error in the benefit system statistics, 2023 to 2024 estimates

www.gov.uk

The key point there is:

Overall, approximately 0.06% of all benefit claims in payment were reviewed by the PM team.

In February 2025, 6.969 million people were claiming Universal Credit, 3.515 million were claiming Personal Independence Payment, and 2.149 million were claiming Housing Benefit

I just look at the PIP figure in the picture above. 3.5 million x 0.06 = 0.21. That's round 210,000 people claiming PIP who shouldn't be. At £100 that 22 million pounds in fraud each week.

Its not misinformation, due to the increased in ant fraud measures delays are causing delays for the people who really need it.

 

[Kev45]

The regs will be pleased to read that I have no intention of being drawn into yet another 'combative' conversation with "Fred".

Online ghouls will be a ghouling.

To conclude, in my opinion, a class action will be brought against the state sometime in the future, as and when more information is released/revealed. After which 10s of £ billions and upwards will be awarded in compensation to the disabled and chronically sick and including to the families of the deceased.

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Kev I know you stop paying income tax after giving up your paper round

We have a choice: cut back on welfare payments or increase taxation. Either way, we can't afford to improve public services unless we get more people into work.

You can dream all you want about a "class action". If you win that money will need to found from some where. So where do they cut? Schools, hospital's or welfare to pay for it?

And if you think they will just increase tax, bear in mind skilled workers are now working less hours. People cant see the point in earning extra money only to lose it to tax. The days of working 60 hours per week are long gone, most only work 35 hours per week or less.

 

[Kev45]

Unfortunately, I am sure that anyone who might be affected by these ghoulish cuts will have read up on this by now.

I share and fully understand your concerns.

But for those who haven't and who might not understand how these immoral cuts will drastically impact on disabled and chronically sick people's lives and their carers and families, here are a few examples.

People who meet the current criteria now need to score a minimum of four points in at least one descriptor to qualify for the “daily living element” of PIP.

This means even if I can't physically wash below the waist, my groin area and my backside and my genitals, I would not be awarded four points under the proposed change because it only awards two points.

Or if I can not get in or out of a bath, I will only be awarded three points.

If I need assistance to use the lavatory, I will only be awarded two points.

If I need assistance to dress or undress the lower body, I will only be awarded two points.

Etc.

The bar has slyly been set so high that now most disabled people won't qualify.


This Labour regime is all but reinventing what disability actually is and what it means, and only the most severely or bed bound disabled people will reach the new threshold of four points.

It doesn't end there, though, unfortunately.

Many "passport benefits" will also be affected, such as carers allowance that unpaid carers receive and the Disabled Persons Railcard etc.

"1.2 million unpaid carers in the UK are already living in poverty, with 400,000 in deep poverty."

Over 50% of unpaid carers currently receive the carers' allowance (a pittance) and which could be lost under these proposals.

(unpaid carers that save the country billions)

In other words, you might do all the above to assist your partner, but now you also won't get sweet fvck all for doing it.

This article goes into it in more detail.

The hidden impact of Labour's disability benefit cuts, explained

The government’s disability benefit cuts impacting around a million people will also have knock-on effects, including for unpaid carers.

www.bigissue.com

 

[Kev45]

 

[DurhamLad]

We have a choice: cut back on welfare payments or increase taxation. Either way, we can't afford to improve public services unless we get more people into work.

It's a bit rich to place the state of this country's public services squarely at the door of benefit claimants.

I can categorically state that interest being paid to banks, as a result of private contracts in the public sector, taxpayers' money that is; will and does utterly dwarf any fraud from benefits claims. It's a complete and utter scam, feathering nests you may say.

I wonder why Starmer, the Tories, Farage and the rest of them would never in a million years go after the people, aka profiteers and scam artists, who donate money to them?

skilled workers are now working less hours.

As a skilled worker, I can tell you that you could not be farther from the truth in my profession.

You mentioned earlier a job in Tesco versus benefits. I wouldn't underestimate how few jobs there are in certain parts of the country. If you live in a mining village in County Durham and you don't have a car, there isn't a great deal for you and a lot of other people are applying for those few jobs.

In a 50 year period, the jobs have gone, they've been moved elsewhere. Successive governments, e.g. Blair, have spent their time courting the banks in London and the South East, the 'new economy' they called it; while allowing manufacturing jobs and the like that other parts of the country depend upon to slide. They've made sure the jobs are concentrated in certain parts of the country, but that's not enough for them, they're now coming for people's benefits, they want it back. There's a glaring next step: they'll come for people's pensions. They'll get that as well.

 

[Kev45]

There are currently around 1.6 million unemployed and around 800,00 jobs advertised. This Labour regime wants to brutally force 1 million chronically sick and disabled people to compete for those jobs.

So 2.6 million competing for 800,000 jobs.

Who is an employer going to employ, someone disabled or chronically sick who has been on long term disability benefits, or someone who has been out of work for a few weeks or months.

Are they skilled jobs being advertised, are they low paid in the service sector, are they temporary work, zero hour contracts etc, and exactly where are they located?

In areas with large numbers of PIP claimants?

Certainly not in deprived areas where jobs, low paid or otherwise, are few and far between and where jobs are available there is huge competition even at minimum wage.

It's a ghoulish punishment beating from this Labour regime, and it won't save a single penny (1bn a year until 20230 is peanuts). It won't create a single job, and it will only damage local economies (high streets etc) already decimated beyond repair after 14 years of ideological austerity. The pittance spent on PIP goes straight back into local economies, boosting local economies and while the 5% squirrel away, literally, £ trillions offshore boosting nothing at all except already wealthy beyond imagination pockets.

Already deprived areas will inevitably become even more deprived, leading to lower life expectancy (dropping like a stone) more inequality, poor health and disability, etc.

"Arbeit macht frei" (Work sets you free).

Go figure...

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

Everyone seems to getting "side tracked" again

None of us have any control over welfare payment levels or government spending.

I will say this:

Single people with saving over 6k wont receive a full welfare payment. Over 20k in savings, you get nothing. It never was a fair system, people who worked hard and paid in, got very little out.

The life/work balance has change in the last 20 years. My first employment contract was based on 44 hours per week. Today most are 35 hours and below.

Asking people who claim welfare to visit UC offices twice a month, take training and look for work isn't "ghoulish".

 

[RiverSpirit]

Everyone seems to getting "side tracked" again

None of us have any control over welfare payment levels or government spending.

I will say this:

Single people with saving over 6k wont receive a full welfare payment. Over 20k in savings, you get nothing. It never was a fair system, people who worked hard and paid in, got very little out.

The life/work balance has change in the last 20 years. My first employment contract was based on 44 hours per week. Today most are 35 hours and below.

Asking people who claim welfare to visit UC offices twice a month, take training and look for work isn't "ghoulish".

PIP is not means tested, the 6k and 20k figures are for UC not PIP.

Asking someone who is on PIP to attend interviews, take training etc could be triggering for people with certain disabilities.

There will always be freeloaders.

It's the govt culling it's citizens.

"Let the bodies pile up"
"They're going to die anyway"

The disabled are seen as a cost centre.
It's being made more and more difficult to get help and support.
The new scoring system sounds awful, and wrong. Score at least 2 points in all sections? So you score 0 in preparing and cooking food but 12 in mobility yet no PIP? It's laughable.

 

[Not_Fred_Honest]

I did look at scoring system on here:

PIP points system

Get the benefits you're entitled to: help with personal independence payment (PIP), universal credit (UC), employment and support allowance (ESA),disability living allowance (DLA). Claims, assessments, reviews, appeals.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk

They look at 10 areas of daily life.

1. Preparing food.​

2. Taking nutrition.​

3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.​

4. Washing and bathing.​

5. Managing toilet needs or incontinence.​

6. Dressing and undressing.​

7. Communicating verbally.​

8. Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words.​

9. Engaging with other people face to face.​

10. Making budgeting decisions.​

I got 18 points

Needs prompting to be able to take nutrition. 4 points.
Anyone who's seen my deliverloo account will tell you I love junk food.

Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week. 2 points.
That's so true too. I never take me meds and my rowing machines got dust on it.
Needs communication support to be able to express or understand complex verbal information. 4 points.
Ask anyone, like most men I need to be told to do things 20 times before I do it.

Needs prompting to be able to read or understand complex written information. 2 points.
I still cant work my new smart phone, that manuals confusing.

Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
There are times when just lock the doors and close myself off from the world.

Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make simple budgeting decisions. 4 points.
Errrr I don't want to discuss that on here.... but it was pointed out that spending £1500 on a new wave ski was a dumb thing to do.

Under "PIP Points Scores Mobility Activities"

I got 12 points too

Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided. 12 points.
The only time I get off the sofa is to pick up my deliverloo at the front door.

From what I can see from this is:

Teenagers can claim PIP for the same reasons as me
Every middle age man living alone can too

But joking a side. If you can take a shower, dress yourself, walk, cook and do your shopping, they wont give you PIP. And I feel most people would agree with that.
I'm no doctor, but I cant see anything in points system that covers mental health. I must be missing something?
The only words that repeated over and over again is: needs assistance. That's confused me. Its clear if you need help keeping yourself clean, cant cook food or move that far, why would you live on your own? The simple truth is you wouldn't, that's why they have careers allowance.

Can some explain to me why you would need PIP if you had a full time career giver? Surely it must be one or the other right?

 

[DurhamLad]

Everyone seems to getting "side tracked" again

Not from my perspective.

Your point seems to be that there is benefit fraud, we need to stop that and get those people back into work. The reason being: we cannot have the public services we need unless we do that.

Reckon that's a fair summary of your posts.

My point was/is: you are looking at the causes of Britain's unsatisfactory public services through an extremely narrow prism. In fact, it absolves successive governments of any responsibility.

 

[Kev45]

Question. AI Chatbot. How much do unpaid carers save the British government in total?

Answer. AI Chatbot. The 2021 Census found 5.8 million unpaid carers in the UK contributed an estimated £184.3 billion annually to the UK economy, equivalent to a second NHS.

Q. AI Chatbot. How much financial help can I expect to receive from the state if I am an unpaid carer, caring for a chronically sick and disabled relative, for at least 35 hours a week?

A. AI Chatbot. The weekly rate for Carer's Allowance, the main state benefit for unpaid carers, is £81.90 a week, £2.34 an hour.

Q. AI Chatbot. How do I qualify for Carers Allowance for working at least 35 hours a week caring for a chronically sick and disabled relative?

A. AI Chatbot. In England, the person you are looking after must be in receipt of the daily living component of PIP.

Q. AI Chatbot. Will Carers Allowance count as income when I claim Universal Credit because I can't work full-time because I am looking after my chronically sick and disabled relative for at least 35 hours a week?

A. AI Chatbot. Yes, Universal Credit is classed as income and taxable and can reduce your Universal Credit. It can also reduce other means tested benefit such as Pension Credit, Income-based Jobseeker's Allowance, Income-related Employment and Support Allowance, Income Support, Housing Benefit, and Council Tax support.

Q. Al Chatbot. Do I still need to look for work to qualify for Universal Credit if I receive Carers Allowance, working for at least 35 hours a week?

A. AI Chatbot. Yes, you still might have to attend work-focused interviews even if you are in receipt of Carers Allowance but not expected to look for work.

Q. AI Chatbot. I have just been told my chronically sick and disabled relative's daily living component of PIP has been cut because she did not score four points in one of the daily living elements after Liz Kendall's "reforms", will I still qualify for Carers Allowance?

A. AI Chatbot. No. The criteria for claiming Carers Allowance is that the person you are claiming for is in receipt of the daily living component of PIP, or someone of pensionable age claiming Attendance Allowance, or Disability Living Allowance which is being phased out and replaced by PIP (in Scotland, Adult Disability Payment).

Q. AI Chatbot. What am I going to do now I am at my wits end, I still need to look after my chronically sick and disabled relative because they are still incapable of work and will not be expected to look for work by the DWP, although they will also be expected to attend "employment support" with a "duty to engage" if they receive UC.

A. AI Chatbot. Grab the last lifebelt now, HMS blue Labour has kicked the hatch wide open for even more Draconian "reform" when the Tories, or god forbid, Reform take power in 2029.

Q. AI Chatbot. But the Sun and Daily Express told me all this is simple and any old Tom Dick or Harry can just stroll into the DWP and claim PIP and Carers Allowance and other stuff and immediately get handed wads of free cash?

A. AI Chatbot. Malfunction Malfunction! Please Evacuate Immediately! Malfunction Malfunction! Liz Kendall Liz Kendall! Wobbly Face Wobbly Face! Evacuate Evacuate!