Under the church?

[Dong]

Were we,as a country, any better behaved in the days when most people went to church and more importantly perhaps, our children to Sunday school?
I don't remember children stabbing each other, drunken thugs at sports meetings, our open spaces being used by drug dealers and their poor customers.
I don,t remember much trouble with people from abroad,we seemed able then to accept them,the Irish, the jews, and many others.
in fact Did God work for us in those days?we're we nicer people under his guidance???

 

[SamBally]

My era caught the back end of Mods and Rockers and biker gangs slashing each other into slices at seaside resorts and while they terrorized families and young children. Or much earlier, the reign of terror by the Krays and other criminal gangs in the East End of London, etc. When Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe and when the Savilles of this world roamed freely seeking their next victims. Football hooliganism and a multitude of other violent crime and when far more people were Churchgoers than now.

Thatcher infamously uttered the words "there is no such thing as society".

Neoliberalism-Corporatism-post capitalism.

Dog eat dog.

In the UK religion has been replaced, for better or worse, by liberalism. More freedom, choice, education. Morality stemming from education and understanding, rather than through fear and fallacies.

 

[Percy666]

It was only for a period in the 50s/60s that society was "better behaved"- if you go back over 100 years humanity has always been butchering each other when people were burnt at stakes for being witches or devils when religion was so important anyone not religious was put to death as works of satan. That doesn't seem a particularly great society to me as religion is as damaging to the human race as it always has been

 

[Dong]

It was only for a period in the 50s/60s that society was "better behaved"- if you go back over 100 years humanity has always been butchering each other when people were burnt at stakes for being witches or devils when religion was so important anyone not religious was put to death as works of satan. That doesn't seem a particularly great society to me as religion is as damaging to the human race as it always has been

There was certainly violence then, It did not seem so nasty so violent as we suffer today.

 

[Percy666]

It was, even more so. I agree to an extent with what you are saying regarding a lack of morals in many compared to 50-60 years ago but if we look at the template of human behaviour over hundreds /thousands of years, the common pattern is a tendency towards violence/ inflicting pain on your fellow man and personality traits conducive to self survival/ greed rather than empathy.

A classic eg of this was in relatively recent human history at the turn of the 20th century when many European countries set about colonising Africa where the natives were routinely butchered tantamount to genocide in many places. It was only a hundred years ago swathes of Armenians were put to death where the males were executed and young children/women were forced on what is now referred to as " death marches " by the Ottoman empire. The human race has basically been vile from year zero

 

[Dong]

My era caught the back end of Mods and Rockers and biker gangs slashing each other into slices at seaside resorts and while they terrorized families and young children. Or much earlier, the reign of terror by the Krays and other criminal gangs in the East End of London, etc. When Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe and when the Savilles of this world roamed freely seeking their next victims. Football hooliganism and a multitude of other violent crime and when far more people were Churchgoers than now.

Thatcher infamously uttered the words "there is no such thing as society".

Neoliberalism-Corporatism-post capitalism.

Dog eat dog.

In the UK religion has been replaced, for better or worse, by liberalism. More freedom, choice, education. Morality stemming from education and understanding, rather than through fear and fallacies.

Sigh! I suppose you are right up to a point.
But it seemed less vicious then. I think it all comes back to the media. Because we read of it daily now we come to believe that it happens every day.

 

[Dong]

One may say that but religion has two faces.
On one side you have the Knights Templar riding off to slay the Muslims. In the name of god.
Then There is your favourite auntie tiddling off to church each Sunday

 

[ladymuck]

Human nature doesn't change....you only have to read history to see that. Religion is a way to keep people under control, but the amount of crime being committed illustrates that knowing the 10 Commandments doesn't act as a deterrent. In the recent past there was less crime, mainly because there were policemen on the streets. These days they seem to sit in the station and wait for the public to report incidents, rather than being a visible presence.

 

[Dong]

Human nature doesn't change....you only have to read history to see that. Religion is a way to keep people under control, but the amount of crime being committed illustrates that knowing the 10 Commandments doesn't act as a deterrent. In the recent past there was less crime, mainly because there were policemen on the streets. These days they seem to sit in the station and wait for the public to report incidents, rather than being a visible presence.

OK. But people believed in those days.
Now we think more.

 

[CrazyCatLady]

Were we,as a country, any better behaved in the days when most people went to church and more importantly perhaps, our children to Sunday school?
I don't remember children stabbing each other, drunken thugs at sports meetings, our open spaces being used by drug dealers and their poor customers.
I don,t remember much trouble with people from abroad,we seemed able then to accept them,the Irish, the jews, and many others.
in fact Did God work for us in those days?we're we nicer people under his guidance???

Oh Hail Mary, where do I start?!?!

Let’s all go back to the good old days. When dental care was rare and having a curry for your tea meant being ostracised by the neighbours the next day, because you were too ethnic for the neighbourhood.

You must have lived an idyllic childhood, protected from the ugly face of God. No abuse by nuns or priests, and then forced to take the blame in Confession. No having to hide your true self and sexuality, because your neighbours and family would see it as a crime against God and an abnormality in your society. No sleeping on the streets; having to change your name and put on an accent, because the sign clearly says ‘No Blacks, No Irish, No dogs’. No reporting your violent husband only to be laughed at by the coppers you’re reporting it too, and having to listen to them when they tell you it’s your fault, because you didn’t get the dinner ready on time- he’s a hard working man after all and he deserves the respect of his woman.

Yes, let’s all jump in a time machine and go back to the Good Old Days.

 

[Wojcik]

Both of my parents were from that Punk era. Dad was a Mod and Mum was a Punk. They used to talk about how free they felt in those days, Dad with his mates on his moped, driving down to the seaside, and Mum with her mate Rose, sneaking out of their house to go to these night clubs where The Cure were playing live.

I think when we talk about freedom, we can only sense it depending on our experiences. I don't think we'll ever truly be a free society.

 

[Moriarty]

My era caught the back end of Mods and Rockers and biker gangs slashing each other into slices at seaside resorts and while they terrorized families and young children. Or much earlier, the reign of terror by the Krays and other criminal gangs in the East End of London, etc. When Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe and when the Savilles of this world roamed freely seeking their next victims. Football hooliganism and a multitude of other violent crime and when far more people were Churchgoers than now.

Thatcher infamously uttered the words "there is no such thing as society".

Neoliberalism-Corporatism-post capitalism.

Dog eat dog.

In the UK religion has been replaced, for better or worse, by liberalism. More freedom, choice, education. Morality stemming from education and understanding, rather than through fear and fallacies.

"There is no such thing as society"?

Context.

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand ‘I have a problem, it is the Government’s job to cope with it!’ or ‘I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!’ ‘I am homeless, the Government must house me!’

And so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first."

Personal responsibility a problem?

Stop cherry picking and use real quotes.

 

[TwoWhalesInAPool]

 

[Moriarty]

View attachment 4025

I think the image you should be using is :-

 

[sarahgothic]

god and religion is basically a good thing but he needs to pick his representatives better, the saying we will put the fear of god into you is an example of control over the less educated masses all over the world and some of the better educated ppl that wanted that control would do anything to gain it ie witch burnings in the name of god, i very much doubt hed condone such atrocities nor would he condone the treatmeant of children that ended up in children's homes run by the church and women who had there children taken from them born out of wedlock , is it any wonder modern day young people shun the church now , if there belief of hell and the devil is fact then surely they will be in the place they most feared

 

[Moriarty]

god and religion is basically a good thing but he needs to pick his representatives better, the saying we will put the fear of god into you is an example of control over the less educated masses all over the world and some of the better educated ppl that wanted that control would do anything to gain it ie witch burnings in the name of god, i very much doubt hed condone such atrocities nor would he condone the treatmeant of children that ended up in children's homes run by the church and women who had there children taken from them born out of wedlock , is it any wonder modern day young people shun the church now , if there belief of hell and the devil is fact then surely they will be in the place they most feared

When Nietzsche wrote that enlightenment would bring about the death of god he inferred that chaos would follow.
He was right, now instead of a controlling religion which instils fear into its followers we now have science and its funding puppet master, government.

Religion and Politics are basically offering good for those who follow its tenants and retribution for those who do not.

Religious power and/or political power amount to the same thing, as do their crimes.

How many times have we had to see news stories of local councils being either complicit or wilfully ignorant of child sex abuse in foster and care homes.

Up until the 1950's the government still forced unmarried mothers into "Moral Welfare" run homes for the children to be fostered.

The control Religiosity and Social pressure can create is very useful to governments if they can control it.

Study a little on the Behavioural Insights Team and SPI-B, government departments who, by their own admission back in 2010 want to change hearts and minds through psychological "Nudging".

Here's a simple fact, on the SAGE advisory panel for Covid, there are more psychologists than virologists, epidemiologists and medical doctors combined.

Anyway, sorry for rambling

However, just as a thought experiment, anyone wanna think about Climate Change as a Great Flood which wipes the world clean of the sinners, only those who are "Righteous" will survive

 

[Wojcik]

My era caught the back end of Mods and Rockers and biker gangs slashing each other into slices at seaside resorts and while they terrorized families and young children. Or much earlier, the reign of terror by the Krays and other criminal gangs in the East End of London, etc. When Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe and when the Savilles of this world roamed freely seeking their next victims. Football hooliganism and a multitude of other violent crime and when far more people were Churchgoers than now.

Thatcher infamously uttered the words "there is no such thing as society".

Neoliberalism-Corporatism-post capitalism.

Dog eat dog.

In the UK religion has been replaced, for better or worse, by liberalism. More freedom, choice, education. Morality stemming from education and understanding, rather than through fear and fallacies.

The issue with Thatcher wasn't the fact that she closed down the mines, but it was the fact that she closed the mines and didn't offer any alternative work for the miners, which destroyed those communities and families for generations.
Harold Wilson closed the mines, but he offered alternative work for those workers. The overall tough pill to swallow about these mines were that they had finite resources, and they were depleted, and it made sense to close those mines.

By "UK religion" I'm assuming you mean Christianity. The majority of the country are Christians, however a majority no longer practice the religion.
I also think people's idea of liberalism and what i identify as liberalism, are two entirely different things. I think it's disingenuous to say that we're still living in a liberal society. There is less freedom(lockdowns, mandatory vaccines, limited to no travel), less choice(depending on social status, class, wealth, upbringing), less educational opportunities(being dumbed down which will harm future generations/less skilled individuals in the work force), and i don't think you learn morality from education(teachers who have agendas and want to force them onto children is immoral). I think you learn morality from your upbringing. Your parents, your grandparents, their values and morals learned.

In fact, the more liberal minded who oppose tyranny, are the ones who are usually targeted. But this isn't a surprise. A recent poll asked if people wanted less restrictions or more restrictions forced upon their daily lives, around seventy percent said they supported more restrictions. Restrictions are not liberal, and i wonder if people submit to tyranny by nature.

 

[TwoWhalesInAPool]

So many troubled people. So few good therapists.

 

[bellofthedesert]

When Nietzsche wrote that enlightenment would bring about the death of god he inferred that chaos would follow.
He was right, now instead of a controlling religion which instils fear into its followers we now have science and its funding puppet master, government.

Religion and Politics are basically offering good for those who follow its tenants and retribution for those who do not.

Religious power and/or political power amount to the same thing, as do their crimes.

How many times have we had to see news stories of local councils being either complicit or wilfully ignorant of child sex abuse in foster and care homes.

Up until the 1950's the government still forced unmarried mothers into "Moral Welfare" run homes for the children to be fostered.

The control Religiosity and Social pressure can create is very useful to governments if they can control it.

Study a little on the Behavioural Insights Team and SPI-B, government departments who, by their own admission back in 2010 want to change hearts and minds through psychological "Nudging".

Here's a simple fact, on the SAGE advisory panel for Covid, there are more psychologists than virologists, epidemiologists and medical doctors combined.

Anyway, sorry for rambling

However, just as a thought experiment, anyone wanna think about Climate Change as a Great Flood which wipes the world clean of the sinners, only those who are "Righteous" will survive

We're gonna need a bigger boat...

 

[Moriarty]

The issue with Thatcher wasn't the fact that she closed down the mines, but it was the fact that she closed the mines and didn't offer any alternative work for the miners, which destroyed those communities and families for generations.
Harold Wilson closed the mines, but he offered alternative work for those workers. The overall tough pill to swallow about these mines were that they had finite resources, and they were depleted, and it made sense to close those mines.

By "UK religion" I'm assuming you mean Christianity. The majority of the country are Christians, however a majority no longer practice the religion.
I also think people's idea of liberalism and what i identify as liberalism, are two entirely different things. I think it's disingenuous to say that we're still living in a liberal society. There is less freedom(lockdowns, mandatory vaccines, limited to no travel), less choice(depending on social status, class, wealth, upbringing), less educational opportunities(being dumbed down which will harm future generations/less skilled individuals in the work force), and i don't think you learn morality from education(teachers who have agendas and want to force them onto children is immoral). I think you learn morality from your upbringing. Your parents, your grandparents, their values and morals learned.

In fact, the more liberal minded who oppose tyranny, are the ones who are usually targeted. But this isn't a surprise. A recent poll asked if people wanted less restrictions or more restrictions forced upon their daily lives, around seventy percent said they supported more restrictions. Restrictions are not liberal, and i wonder if people submit to tyranny by nature.

It was a Yougov poll

The current Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Prevention, Public Health and Primary Care, one Nadhim Zahawi.

Co-Founded Yougov.org

When polling affirms government policy, look at who is doing the polling