Qbism as a theory of reality?

[Moriarty]

Do we know the difference between an absolute objective reality and the subjective measuring of it?

How can reality be singularly objective when measured in human terms?

Is therefore reality simply how we percieve it?

If reality becomes subjective, as the post modernists would have us think, how can one counter that argument?

Is reality a constant which exists and we are just viewers of it over time, or do we create reality by our actions or inactions?

Curious what folks think

 

[Saphire]

I would love to give you an answer, but sadly... I don't understand the question.

 

[LadyOnArooftop]

I would love to give you an answer, but sadly... I don't understand the question.

Me Too! I got lost at 'Qbism'. Bless you @Moriarty I love your posts, but this one left me dumbfounded

 

[Saphire]

I like his contributions too, though think I understand him more when he has had a few.

 

[Altair]

Do we know the difference between an absolute objective reality and the subjective measuring of it?

How can reality be singularly objective when measured in human terms?

Is therefore reality simply how we percieve it?

If reality becomes subjective, as the post modernists would have us think, how can one counter that argument?

Is reality a constant which exists and we are just viewers of it over time, or do we create reality by our actions or inactions?

Curious what folks think

Reality is Just that...Reality...Nothing spooky about it. We are. Reality isn't a Constant. It's more of a Time Frame.. In a certain Time Frame. (If you get me)..

We can't create 'Reality'. Since it already exists.

 

[Moriarty]

Reality is Just that...Reality...Nothing spooky about it. We are. Reality isn't a Constant. It's more of a Time Frame.. In a certain Time Frame. (If you get me)..

We can't create 'Reality'. Since it already exists.

Imagine a magician doing a card trick right in front of you.
They amaze you by making cards appear and disappear seemingly at will.
Your reality is they perform a magic trick.
Thier reality is they have secreted cards, re-ordered cards, manipulated your perception of reality.

If something like a deck of cards can fool your perceived reality, then is it a constant?
To you reality has changed.
To the magician it has to, you fell for the trick.

Therefore is it not debatable that reality is subjective?

Let's have fun with it and extend it to Schrodinger's cat.
A quantum physics experiment where a cat in a box with poisen can be both alive and dead at the same time as it is not percieved by anyone as being in either state.
Except the cat.

So if the cat is alive in the box then objective reality is that is still breathing.
However to any outsider who has not percieved the cat, it is an unknown, hence reality is subjective.

Although this experiment is a Quantum physics one, it remains debatable today.
It was based on the seemingly random decay of nuclear particles measured by a Geiger counter to release the poisen or not.
The reason it is debatable is the fact that this random decay was measured by something man made.

So without a man made intervention, the cat would have nothing to worry about, the experiment would be pointless.
Simply because it causes the Quantum wave function to collapse as without interpretation it has no reality.

Or is this simply arrogance that we humans wont believe anything we cannot witness?

So how does that answer the question of faith?

Can we be religious without evidence?
Billions of people are, yet what does objective reality tell us?

When you consider that faith is truth to those who have it, isn't the scientific method also a matter of faith which changes over time.
So as you say, belief changes over time, as does knowledge and faith.

So I would postulate that knowledge, therefore reality, is based on perception over time.
So what we believe today may change tomorrow.

Hence reality is subjective.

Except to the cat

 

[Altair]

Imagine a magician doing a card trick right in front of you.
They amaze you by making cards appear and disappear seemingly at will.
Your reality is they perform a magic trick.
Thier reality is they have secreted cards, re-ordered cards, manipulated your perception of reality.

If something like a deck of cards can fool your perceived reality, then is it a constant?
To you reality has changed.
To the magician it has to, you fell for the trick.

Therefore is it not debatable that reality is subjective?

Let's have fun with it and extend it to Schrodinger's cat.
A quantum physics experiment where a cat in a box with poisen can be both alive and dead at the same time as it is not percieved by anyone as being in either state.
Except the cat.

So if the cat is alive in the box then objective reality is that is still breathing.
However to any outsider who has not percieved the cat, it is an unknown, hence reality is subjective.

Although this experiment is a Quantum physics one, it remains debatable today.
It was based on the seemingly random decay of nuclear particles measured by a Geiger counter to release the poisen or not.
The reason it is debatable is the fact that this random decay was measured by something man made.

So without a man made intervention, the cat would have nothing to worry about, the experiment would be pointless.
Simply because it causes the Quantum wave function to collapse as without interpretation it has no reality.

Or is this simply arrogance that we humans wont believe anything we cannot witness?

So how does that answer the question of faith?

Can we be religious without evidence?
Billions of people are, yet what does objective reality tell us?

When you consider that faith is truth to those who have it, isn't the scientific method also a matter of faith which changes over time.
So as you say, belief changes over time, as does knowledge and faith.

So I would postulate that knowledge, therefore reality, is based on perception over time.
So what we believe today may change tomorrow.

Hence reality is subjective.

Except to the cat

Well....no matter what the Magician did, Reality still stayed the same, at least for the 'Observers' outside of that experience. Yours is a difficult question to answer.

To postulate that Reality is somehow connected with knowledge based on perception over time is moot.

Reality doesn't give a stuff about your Knowledge and Perception.!

People CAN be Religious without Proof / Evidence.

We see that today, with BILLIONS of people convinced, there is a Magic Man in the sky.!

 

[NickUK]

The truth is nobody will ever experience a true objective view of reality, its just how the human brain works, each persons reality is different from everybody else's based on experience, education, culture etc, wether it be true or false reality is an exceptionally personal thing...

 

[Altair]

The truth is nobody will ever experience a true objective view of reality, its just how the human brain works, each persons reality is different from everybody else's based on experience and knowledge of what reality is, wether it be true or false reality is an exceptionally personal thing...

Don't we ALL experience Reality though?.

No matter what we do. Our experiences ARE different.. Ok..... But Reality stays the same for all of us.

 

[NickUK]

Don't we ALL experience Reality though?.

No matter what we do. Our experiences ARE different.. Ok..... But Reality stays the same for all of us.

Depends on wether you mean the concept of reality or the experience of it...yes we all experience reality the same in the moment I suppose

 

[Altair]

Depends on wether you mean the concept of reality or the experience of it...yes we all experience reality the same in the moment I suppose

Explain to me what is the 'Concept' of reality.

 

[Altair]

How long do you need?

 

[NickUK]

How long do you need?

Sorry I went up the shops lol
I'm not really into philosophy personally to be honest, but your 'concept' of reality is what I said earlier, your education, life experiences, culture as a whole, your 'reality identity'... for example someone bought up in a violent environment may think the world is a violent and threatening place...thats their 'concept of reality' ....just a basic example I'm off to drink my beers

 

[Altair]

Sorry I went up the shops lol
I'm not really into philosophy personally to be honest, but your 'concept' of reality is what I said earlier, your education, life experiences, culture as a whole, your 'reality identity'... for example someone bought up in a violent environment may think the world is a violent and threatening place...thats their 'reality' ....just a basic example I'm off to drink my beers

Hmm...okay. Enjoy your Beers. How about a lesson about Reality?...

Reality doesn't care about 'Education'. Reality doesn't care about 'Environment'. REALITY JUST IS.

You can't change it.

What you speak of are Life 'Experiences'... That's got nothing to do with Reality.

Reality will and always will be.

Come back soon dude.

 

[NickUK]

Hmm...okay. Enjoy your Beers. How about a lesson about Reality?...

Reality doesn't care about 'Education'. Reality doesn't care about 'Environment'. REALITY JUST IS.

You can't change it.

What you speak of is 'Experiences'... That's got nothing to do with Reality.

Reality will and always will be.

Come back soon dude.

what you are essentially describing is 'the truth' at the end of the day not reality and how it works for humans...

 

[Altair]

what you are essentially describing is 'the truth' at the end of the day not reality and how it works for humans...

I'm not Describing Anything.. I was trying to answer a difficult question posed by the OP.

 

[NickUK]

I'm not Describing Anything.. I was trying to answer a difficult question posed by the OP.

Last time I tried to describe something in a chatroom here I was greeted with 'thats the maddest thing I have ever heard'...looks like I am doing it again...

 

[Altair]

Last time I tried to describe something in a chatroom here I was greeted with 'thats the maddest thing I have ever heard'...looks like I am doing it again...

We were all there at one time.

 

[NickUK]

L. Ron Hubbard once said 'The man who thinks he is the most sane man in the world is probably the maddest'

 

[Altair]

L. Ron Hubbard once said 'The man who thinks he is the most sane man in the world is probably the maddest'

Go to bed Nick.

There is no one here madder than me.!